Doc is driving me nuts

[eja117]

In fantasy bball I'd never drop a pg for another pg cause he gets an extra .2 assists per game while shooting under 40%. In fact I wouldn't pick him even if he got an extra assist per game.

[cfoo]

Rondo brings more to the table as a passer and penetrator, but right now I think Delonte is the more complete player. I don't think he's the better pg ultimately, but Rondo has some serious flaws with his shooting % and ft shooting to start over Delonte. Right now the real battle for PT should be between Gerald and Rondo imo. Doc went with Rondo tonight because of the matchup.

[meangreen]

What is goin on here !!! I can't belive what Im hearin from all of u gents, its like we've become sooooo beatean dwn over the yrs of Carr, Pitino, etc that we've just accepted that if the coach isn't "hurtin" us then its alright ? Coachin isn't important !!!! Yeah, ask the Lakers if coachin is important. B4 they had Phil look @the carousel of coaches they had they couldn't get kobe&shaq 2play 2gether, they were under-achievers. Even now w/just kobe as the only legit player they're OVER-ACHIEVIN in the west, lookin 2make the playoffs. How did it wrk 4thier continuity? Under Doc this team has NEVER over achieved, they've greatly UNDER achieved, even when healthy. Even when healthy, does any1 get the feelin that they see what Doc is tryin 2do, that he knows this team, its weaknesses and strengths. U should look @the game and see or think "OK, I see what he's tryin 2do, wheather it wrks or not" The fact that Doc isn't "hurtin" us IS hurtin us !! Id agree w/allll of you in regards 2guys like Powe, Rondo, Telfair, etc. But w/all of the injuries and our record what's the use in playin guys like Scal, Kandi, Wally, etc. DON'T WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE??? WHAT THEY CAN DO?? I mean Im on board w/waitin ur turn 2play. Jimmie Johnson played emitt smith not necessarily he thought he could or couldn't play, but he had NOTHIN 2loose in the middle of a 1-15 season. Just like WE ARE. We're in positon 2get a top 3pk in the draft, what do we have 2loose? Good stuff DMATTS, u and I see more eye2eye on this subject. How can any1 say we should play a slowed dwn half-court game ? We should be playin 2OUR strength and not2 some1 elses. Pierce can get up&dwn the court as well as any1 still and can fill the lane and finish w/authority. Doc isn't doin anythin 4this team that can't EASILY be replaced w/a good coach. U guys act like gettin rid of Doc will disrupt the time continuim of the team ;D. Doc is and has been a non-descript coach here. If as we all say its time 4these guys 2grow up then lets give 'em a coach that'll bring that 'bout. Those who think its Doc, PLEASE, PLEASE give me reasons that you think that Doc will take us to the prominent place we all want this team to be. I mean look @the Sixers and the Knicks. They actually extened the time of Cheeks and Thomas, HUH ? Did any1 else here this and think great move? Did any1 else get that sinkin feelin that "Oh no, I hope this doens't mean that they're goin 2re-up Doc?" Does any1 else think that just 'cause the sixers and knicks are playin better, which is a relative term, are better coaches and gms NOW than they were b4. Like alllll of a sudden a light went off and they finally got it? Guys get rid of Doc, and loosin him won't be the end of us.

[cfoo]

Meangreen I like you. I don't know what to make of you, but I like you. I know what youa re saying MEan but it's also naive in a way. Let's look at the Jimmy Johnson situation, he was 1-15 and 7-9 in his 1st two seasons. He started Emmitt in the 7-9 year at the midway point. Because he had 2 losing seasons, does that mean he was a bad coach? If you can find me another Red Auerbach I'm all ears. Or a Phil Jackson fo rthat matter, and even Phil went through some rough times with the bulls before they were good and they were building. Was he a bad coach because the bulls were underachieving all those years? I'm not saying Doc is that, but the thing is we really don't know. You don't even know. You say Doc isn't hurting us, but I say he is actually doing good in a lot of regards. Just look at the progress of some of the young players. Green is a highschooler, Rondo is a rookie and so is Powe. They are doing well for that point. I've actually seen a lot of positives, and this team does play hard imo and is pretty focused for a team that is as bad and inexperienced as they are. If you are goign to knock Doc and say this team is nondescript because of him, you should be saying the same for DAnny Boy. How good do you expect this team to be playing a highschooler in green, a rookie in rondo, basically a 1st year player in JEfferson, Perk is the same thing and has been hurt. Allen got Hurt. Pierce was out. It's all well and good to expect miracles but it's not happening. Phil Jackson could be coaching this team and we'd be just as bad.

[cfoo]

Unless you can find me GEne Hackman and reincarnate hoosiers and bring the kid, shooting grandma style and win some games, I'd love it, but this really has very little to do with Doc.

[cfoo]

I'm all for bitching about a losing mentality and I've done it on several occasions btw, but this is your team. And it's also the NBA, and creating a good team takes patience and doesn't happen over night. Casting off Doc isn't going to solve anything overnight. If anything Doc has been pretty good about this and actually likes coaching this team and that's a positive. It's not like he's pitino here bitching and moaning.

[eja117]

I think a coach which is somewhat better than Doc could have got us maybe 3-4 extra wins this year. The greatest coach of all time, maybe 7. We'd still be a horrid team. And a coach might do that by giving the young kids pretty much no minutes at all. That's totally unacceptable. There is no way on Earth you'll bring in a coach where you'll love every single thing they do and agree with every decision they make. Don't go looking for that coach cause that coach is you and they aren't hiring you.

[cfoo]

One thing I've learned over the years is that a coach that does things that make sense usually isn't all that. Jimmy Johnson is a perfect example of that. I'm not saying Doc is great or anything, but Jimmy used to do some things that used to drive me nuts, but when it was all said and done it made sense. Obie on the other hand was a coach that got everything out of his players and had them overachieving and playing hard but was that really good? Sure it was for the time being, but I think people fail to see the big picture more times than not, and just want to place blame on someone and Doc is the logical scapegoat. I know that makes no sense but it's actually true. I remember when Pitino came in and he talked a good game and he was going to get this team trapping and running and be the savior and it was a load of crap. He bailed on this team at the first sign of trouble. Doc is at least seeing this through.

[cfoo]

If Phil JAckson was here and din't have all those rings, and was benching guys and being hard on them, people would think he was clueless, but since he's phil jackson it would be ok. I remember when Belicheck first got the patriots, he came from cleveland and didn't have a great coaching resume, and it was the same thing. People used to do the same thing with Francona and nitpick ever move he made that didn't work out. Francoma this, Francoma that, get rid of Francoma. The reality is we really don't know how good a coach Doc is, I dont know and you don't know, because this team hasn't been together long enough.

[meangreen]

Guys, Im not sayin that changin coaches will've made us playoff contenders, I agree w/u Eja 'bout the #of wins and I hear what ur sayin CF00. What Im sayin 'bout Doc isn't that we'd be a playoff team w/a better coach. Im sayin that we'd ACTUALLY see what this team is tryin 2do and what direction or identity they're tryin 2comform2. Doc hasn't established this team as a half-court team OR an uptemoed team. Granted some of our young guys have improved, but any coach could've gotten that. Hell, Johnny Davis who coached the sixers a while back had guys that improved cause they played more and just got better cause they learned the league, so guys the more they play are goin 2get better in most cases dependin on their own abilities and not necessarily on coachin. We KNOW what kind of coach Doc is, over the what 3,4yrs he's been here, ESPECIALLY when the game is close in the wanin minutes or secs of a game. How many gms have we lost on final shots or buzzer beaters when the other team has the ball and how many have we won when we had the ball ? Who looks @his personel and his scheme @the end of close gms on D and thinks "ok this is what we should be doin" It doesn't take a genius 2know who our best defensive team is @the end of games. Even if u say we've young guys and aren't as talented, has he drawn up a play where u though, ok I see what he was tryin 2do here or what the staff was think but it just didn't wrk or they just made a good play on us? Im not necessarily concerned 'bout the wins and losses as I am the style we play, the use of the personel, and his construction and implimentation of a competent game plan. This team even w/the development of the talent that's developed has 2wrk 2hard 2get hoops and stops, which Doc should see and doesn't or he doesn't know how or what 2do 2make it easier. I actually think DA has done a good job of gettin talent on this team that'll develop over time, I don't think he's the right coach 4this team. Doc's never played on a team that was like the team we're tryin 2construct, he's never been an uptempo G in this league. His hey day was w/guys like Konkac, Willis, Tree Rollins, D. Wilkens, yeah they could run @times but they weren't an up&dwn team. CF ur right, I think, 'bout JJ and Emitt, but he had nothin 2loose by playin emitt, though I can't remember who was in front of emitt @the time. We've got even less 2loose w/lettin Powe, Rondo, Telfair play. What are we riskin here? Hey if u guys like Doc, u like him. I think he's the wrong coach 4this team, his track record has shown that even w/talent he can only take 'em soo far. Tony Dungy had the same rep 4a looooooog time, 'till he got Manning, Harrison, Freeney, etc and even then they almost lost 2the Pats this yr. Doc's had teams in Orl that were farrr more talented than this team and they could only get so far. I know some of u have said that Red and other's aren't comin through the door 2coach this team. But Im SURE that all of u gents can come up w/names of coaches thatd'b better suited 2coach this team and further its developement than Doc ;D. By the way Im enjoy this FRIENDLY debate immensely. Good 2talk Cs w/some guys who enjoy the green as much as I do ;D ;D ;D

[cfoo]

I know what you are saying Mean, and you make some good points. But couldn't it be seen the other way around as well? The fact we are actually in these games is a positive. And I agree that a lot of games have been lost in the end, and that could be poor coaching, but it also could just be signs of an inexperienced team which we are. i'm not saying Doc doesn't need to go ultimately, maybe he does, but maybe what Doc is trying to instill right now isn't a win at all costs attitude. Maybe winning this year isn't this team's first priority right now. Maybe we are just trying to find guys who fit their roles later in games at this point. I like that this team is competitive, and it wouldn't be surprising if these close games suddenly start turning into wins next year.

I'm not saying Doc is the guy. But as of now I still like Doc for the most part and think he can be a good coach for us. Yes I just said that.

[cfoo]

Just as I say that I hear Doc say he called a play several times and they screwed up the play and turned it over, and the bulls scored. And he basically said we can't have that, and that in playoff games every possesion is critical and you cant have guys making mistakes like that down the stretch. This tells me he is preaching the right things and this team is just inexperienced and isn't executing.

[freshnthehouse]

cf00 said:

And it's also the NBA, and creating a good team takes patience and doesn't happen over night.

Most def. And patience is what a lot of fans dont seem to have (Esp. on other C's boards).

[freshnthehouse]

eja117 said:

There is no way on Earth you'll bring in a coach where you'll love every single thing they do and agree with every decision they make. Don't go looking for that coach cause that coach is you and they aren't hiring you.

Exactamundo. I see some many fans that post stuff like "We need to play Telfair more!" "We need to play Rondo more!" "We need to play Gerald more!" They all agree that Doc is a crappy coach for not playing who they think they should be playing, but tehy don't realize that what they are saying doesnt make any sense. Not everyone can be played, and not everyone is going to get equal minutes.

[meangreen]

CF, yeah, its great that the guys are playin hard and they've not given up. But 2that I say so what. ANY coach can have guys playin 4him that don't quit or give up. Through out sports there have been bad coaches that had teams that didn't just roll over and die. Guys play hard on thier own 'cause they know they'll not get jobs or big $$$$ss somewhere else if they're labled as dogs, especially if they're not high profile or premium pedigree players. I even agree w/u as well 'bout the close games that've been lost. But U AND I both have seen the gms where clearly poor coachin has been the difference in a win or lost, some that are lost from early 'cause of a bad game plan or poor subin. No, winnin isn't the teams 1st priority now, which is the reason Ive been screemin as well as the gent who writes on the home pg of this site WHY IS POWE NOT STARTIN over Scal ? Guys like Wally(not so much since he's been hurt), Kandi(no so much though w/perks injury) gettin long minutes. We already know what these guys can do and if the team is tryin 2find out 'bout guys they've a funny way of doin it. Eja, Im not lookin 4a coach that Ill agree w/every single thing he does, ur right that's unrealistic, includin who does and doesn't get minutes. HOWEVAAH ;D, Im lookin 4a coach that knows how 2coach an uptempo style, that can teach defense and takes it seriously, that knows his personel well enough 2employ a style that best suits them. THAT shouldn't be askin 2much should it? If Doc's NOT the guy, then there is no logical reason 2keep him long or short term. The plan SHOULD be 2find THE guy shoudn't it? Hey guys tell me what that star by my name and greeeniac in trainin means ;D I apologize 4not knowin all the ins and outs of these forums ;D