how do you rate best player?

[cfoo]

www.csnne.com/blog/celtics-talk/heinsohn-lebron-pebble-foot-mt-rushmore

Just reading this article and I find the comments underneath interesting or not for the most part. But how many people think heinsohn was a scrub and LeBron is clearly the best player ever. The arguments about Russell are always the same too how Russell won championships but it was because he had a better team around him then chamberlain. I don't know about that. Some players need to dominate the ball.

Say I get on a basketball court and there is a guy who everyone thinks is the best player because he is super athletic and can run and jump high and do all these amazing things. We play 5 pick up games switching teams each time and have the same players and I beat that player every time. Does that mean he is a better basketball player than me? no it doesn't. It means i'm better. Seems pretty straightforward to me. basketball is a team sport.

I agree with heinsohn on LeBron because I think a lot of athletes these days don't have the skillset or understanding of the game that players did back then. Even if LeBron is more talented he would get killed by those teams because of their toughness and understanding of the game. Most of lebrons game is because of nutritional supplements and roids or whatever it is these da ys anyways.

I think for the most part most players today don't have that understand of the game in ways. Why Duncan is able to do so well at his age and why Dirk was able to beat l ebron. They were older players with a better understanding regardless of if they weren't nearly as athletic.

Unfortunately the state of the nba there aren't nearly as many players like that as their used to be. The game is much more about the individual today than anything.

players like the ones i'm talking about are rare and the majority has never experienced that imo. Unless you have been beaten by the type of player i'm talking about the masses just continue to think the same way. Intelligence and inner drive is just as rare as raw physical skill and isn't as apparent to the naked eye. It goes for everything in life too.

There are very few players in the nba who make the players around them better. Even after Russell beat chamberlain people still think that. I don't understand that either. All the hype leading up to those games was that chamberlain couldn't be beat. They were proven wrong but the consensus is still that.

[cfoo]

I've always felt that LeBron is overrated though for this reason. He is that bully on the basketball court where there are better players. Tom Brady to me was overlooked and most people thought he wasn't that good but he was. He used to not have to be the guy though and made his teammates around him better and that is when he was the best. Since he's become the guy I don't think he is as good as he was.

[derrenattheoffice]

Lebron could possibly go down as a top 5 player in the history of the game. His numbers are that incredible and if he continues on pace for another 10 years, he'll be in rarified air.

Don't know how that's overrated.

[cfoo]

I think the league is much more predicated to catering to these guys though. It's no different than scoring in the nfl and the homerun in baseball. Points in the nfl across the board are up by a huge margain the past several seasons because they have changed the rules. This is tommy's frustration with the nba and the officials because they don't call the games like they are supposed to be called.

I think most young players fall into the same trappings as well. Most players are about the individual these days. The celtics are one of the rare teams that don't have their entire team covered in tattoos. there are a lot of players that put up monster numbers as well but don't win. Lebron has won twice but was basically heralded as the best before he even won. He paired himself with wade and bosh who are overrated players too imo.

i think th ese guys can be beaten with the right mix of players. the issue is finding players lik et hat that want to beat lebron and aren't idolizing him is difficult.

[cfoo]

we are a really bad team. we still beat the heat because we wanted to.

[cfoo]

I just don't have faith that a guy like Carmelo is going to beat lebron because he is just as much of a ballhog as he is. Lebrons entire generation is that way. Melo just doesn't strike me as bill russell or kevin garnett as far as his mentality. Unless melo changes his outlook or team that he's on there aren't many players i feel can contend with lebron.

this is why i think lebron is overrated because look at his competition. Timmy is old. Dirk beat him.

Indiana or Durant might if they aren't stupid. Unfortunately I think paul george is too busy idolizing lebron.

Same with Durant. Durant said at one point he follows lebron's boxscores and tries to put up the same numbers as him.

[freshnthehouse]

Apr 16, 2014 19:58:28 GMT -5 derrenattheoffice said:

Lebron could possibly go down as a top 5 player in the history of the game. His numbers are that incredible and if he continues on pace for another 10 years, he'll be in rarified air.

Don't know how that's overrated.

And besides his numbers (which are incredible), Lebron's perimeter D is out of this world. When the Heat are playing at their peak, I could watch them play D all day. They are the only team that can rival the mid/late 90s Bulls as far as perimeter D.

[cfoo]

They are like the new bulls and Lebron is the new jordan for sure. I just question the competition he is playing again. Jordan never had to face magic or bird in their prime or Russell or players like that. Jordan couldnt win when those teams were in their prime. Neither could lebron wh en the celtics and lakers were in their prime this time around either.

That is one thing i like about their style of play though is their quickness on defense and how they get out on the break and can take over games. I'm not saying lebron isnt up there. I dont think he is even in Jordans class though. I dont think the competition in general is what it used to be.

[cfoo]

Russell has the most rings. But yet the argument is always the same that he wasnt the best. I don't really agree with that. He wasn't a prolific scorer that is for sure. I remember as a kid being on the playground. I was more an unselfish player who was out for everyone else. Didn't score a lot but could score and get in a zone if i wanted to. As i've gotten older im usually one of the better scorers though. I remember a few times some cocky kids who would score and hog the ball would talk (censored) to me. I didnt like that too much. So i would defend rebound, outlet the ball, lead the break and my team would win. Does that mean they were better than me? One time i remember my friend knew i got pissed and he was like why did you do that because i didnt let the guy score another point. I was like he wasnt better than me. I tend to think Russell kind of had that same mindset in some weird way. Russell wasnt that cocky jerk of a bully on the court. more the nice guy who dealt with alot of ignorance and struck back in his own way.

KG was this too. Crazy too maybe and a bully himself but if you watch kg and how he is its usually a response. he instigates but its more a response. Bird was this way as well. Where he would respond. He'd get that look in his eye and just wasnt going to lose and would drain shot after shot like a cold blooded murderer. The other guy would hit a shot. bird would come down and hit a shot right back in his face. pierce had some of that as well.

bird would instigate but he wasn't someone you wanted to light a fire under.

[cfoo]

there's that shot of lebrn tossing a towel on the floor when a kid was trying to help him. Russell would not do something like that. That's just being a jerk to me. Lebron is that other guy. Russell would more respond to ignorance and stay away from it too. I'm sure lebron has dealt with ignorance in his own way too. I'm not saying that. I think he has. But he's still kind of a jerk. KG has had his moments as well but i think KG is coming from a different place.

that;s what competition is and where some of these guys came from and what made them wh o they are though. It doesnt mean any of them are great people for what they did on a basketball court. Russell is a great person imo for the stuff he's done off the court and who he is in his heart.

Ultimately its about sportmansship and recocnizing who the best player is. That's why the mvp trophy was named after bill russell. The trophy has gone to lebron several times. i think people recognize lebron is the best and most valuable player in the game today. most valuable ever? I dont know. I still think Russell is up there.

[cfoo]

the trophy is named after russell for a reason. It's not the michael jordan mvp award. I think russell regognizes lebron is the mvp. i think he's unselfish enough where he'd give lebron his due regardless. lebron giving russell his due is something else.

if they were to go head to head im not sure lebron understands how good russell was. magic knew how good bird was. jordan im not so sure. he never won when those guys were in their prime though. lebron gives kg some of his due and that he wanted to get together with wade and bosh because of what the celtics did. But im not sure he realizes how good that team was. I think he thinks he's better. when those teams face each other in their prime those celtics teams would beat the heat imo.

Russell saying jordan was thebest ever doesn't make it so either. It just shows how selfless he was. Lebron snubbing russell on mount rushmore shows how overrated and selfish he is imo and tommy is right. bill russell by all accounts was a better player adn person. more championships more humility.

i think barry vs emmitt is the same thng to me. people talk about emmitt had a better team. that team was 1-15 before emmitt got there. barry's teams went 3-13 and everything in between. barry is overrated. people talk about emmitt's line. it was teh same line. whenever emmitt got hurt they couldnt run the ball. they started off 0-4 that one year emmitt held out. they went on to win the superbowl once jerry got his head out of his (censored) and signed him. he was a one cut runner who knew how to find the hole and dart or plow through it. he didn't dance around in the backfield at all. he made his teammates better and made it look easy. he was smart that way. he was also a great pass blocker and did the little things and had enough versatitility where his teams won. tommy always talks about making the winning play and emmitt would do that and try to win games. he got so many clutch first downs it was ridiculous in his career. it wasnt about the highlight run to him. i watched his entire career. Sanders i watched as well and he would dance in the backfield and make unncessary cuts that were not winning plays.

lebron is a very good player and makes the right play more times than not these days but i still dont th ink he is unstoppable or in the class of some of these other guys. I think birds understanding of the game was much greater than lebron. magic as well. i also think pierce is very underrated that way. played on some good teams by himself and won on his own much like lebron did. pierce vs lebron is not as far apart as it seems. pierce is still very underrated. lebron might be more of an impressive physical specimen and make it look prettier b ut the results are not that far off. both have the same winning percentage in their careers. pierce was on a championship team later than lebron. pierce still won on his own though and took his team deep into the playoffs with lesser talent.

[cfoo]

that's how ive always seen it. Players i've always liked are usually that. Barring Dan Marino. He was one of my favorites and the dolphins could never put a team around him or run the ball or had a defense. But not sure if that had to do with dan's style of play or whatever. I think it did. But loved watching that guy. bo jackson was another one.

magic
bird
russell
peirce
brady
emmitt smith
george brett
garnett
walter payton
marino
bo jackson
john mcenroe

those are some of my favorite players ever though and they all kind of fit that mold of what i'm talking about. Brett didnt put up huge numbers but he was a thorn in the yankees side for years. underrated. hitting .390 that one year shows how good he was capable of.

the c's may end up drafting an uber talented player this draft but all signs point to that whoever we get wont be in jordan or lebrons class of athlete. a step below but still a prime prospect. going to take time to develop but still hyped.

john mcenroe another guy though that might not get the hype as best ever but that guy knew how to get mad. mcenroe would make me laugh. he was a spoiled brat and didnt care how you are supposed to be or what was politically correct. loved magic too because of his personality. he was a different kind of player and his personality was infectious. as a celtics fan he was one of my favorite players and that says something. i think there definately have been better tennis player sthan mcenroe and better baseball players than brett but they were underrated imo. they had that something.

I think most players i dislike are players who try to be politically correct and try to come off as something they really aren't. lebron is one of those guys. Arod is another. it wouldnt surprise me if lebron is a cheat either and what he would do to be recognized as the best. I see guys like that as somewhat selfish where they are ultimately in it for themselves at the detriment of other people. Jordan was that way as well. It was a sickness almost to jordan. I like jordan more than those other guys though. i dont really have much against jordan though. i think he was somewhat overhyped and would get beaten by those lakers and celtics teams. he did. he didnt win until bird and magic were old. jordan couldnt beat those guys until bird couldnt walk anymore.

[freshnthehouse]

Apr 17, 2014 16:55:28 GMT -5 cfoo said:

there's that shot of lebrn tossing a towel on the floor when a kid was trying to help him. Russell would not do something like that. That's just being a jerk to me. Lebron is that other guy. Russell would more respond to ignorance and stay away from it too. I'm sure lebron has dealt with ignorance in his own way too. I'm not saying that. I think he has. But he's still kind of a jerk. KG has had his moments as well but i think KG is coming from a different place.

Russell could be pretty cold toward kids, which rubbed some of his teammates the wrong way. He also had his own reasons as to why he didn't give autographs, but those reasons seemed to disappear when he found out he could join up with the old-timer's circuit and make a buck selling his autographs at sports shows. Seems hypocritical to me, but to each their own.

i think people recognize lebron is the best and most valuable player in the game today. most valuable ever? I dont know. I still think Russell is up there.

Maybe I'm biased, but Lebron would really stay on the top of his game will into his 30s for him to be considered the best ever. I'd prolly put him in top 10-15 all time right now. But he's got one hell of a mountain to climb.

[cfoo]

some people are jerks though and kind of deserve to be cold too imo. im not saying Russell didn't have his moments but I guess it depends on who you are being a jerk too. that kid was trying to help LeBron out. I don't know the kid though. Russell with the whole Jon barry dead stare thing. Barry made a racist comment and I don't blame Russell in that instance. Emmitt smith was known to be a jerk to fans too. but some of these people just want a piece of you anyways and are pretty rude themselves. Why give your autograph to someone who doesn't respect you and is just going to sell it. I guess it depends. It's difficult to be nice to everyone. there are people I listen to on the internet i'm not the nicest person to myself so I'm a jerk too I guess. Usually its when someone trashes a player or disrespects them first. Lebron to me is usually that guy himself who disrespects other players. the fact he doesn't have Russell on his mount rushmore is disrespectful to me. Russell on theother hand gives a ton of respect to LeBron. If Lebron wasn't that way Heinsohn would respect him more. heinsohn said that because of Lebron removed Russell. Again response to disrespect instead of instigating it.

Heinsohns whole thing with the officials is that too. If the officials called the games like they are supposed to and didn't disrespect the game and could admit fault Heinsohn wouldn't be that way. McEnroe was the same thing to me. Some officials are jerks. I liked McEnroe. He might have been a jerk right back but there' sa difference. McEnroe was an actor that way. He would just be a jerk back to the jerk. He wasn't the real jerk. lol.

eye for an eye mentality is never good and it's being a jerk either way but sometimes you have to get mad. Sometimes its best to walk away or smile brighters or be the better person. But that's competition for you. Sometimes people feel wronged for a reason deep in their soul and get mad.

I'd like to think we've come a long way as far as ignorance and these guys are a different generation but Lebron isn't a player where i'm going to kiss his butt I know that much.

[freshnthehouse]

Apr 18, 2014 1:13:07 GMT -5 cfoo said:

Russell with the whole Jon barry dead stare thing. Barry made a racist comment and I don't blame Russell in that instance.

Do you mean Rick Barry? From back when the two of them called games for the NBA? If so I know what you are talking about. The look that Russell shot him was priceless. Russell deserves to get some kind of perseverance in broadcasting award for having to put up with that blowhard.

Why give your autograph to someone who doesn't respect you and is just going to sell it.

But in Russell's case it was children in the 1960s. There was no market for that kind of stuff back then, so I doubt they were trying to sell it.

the fact he doesn't have Russell on his mount rushmore is disrespectful to me.

Isn't it Lebron's opinion who he chooses? Lebron is far from the only person that wouldn't put Russell in his top four players of all time.

I liked McEnroe. He might have been a jerk right back but there' sa difference. McEnroe was an actor that way. He would just be a jerk back to the jerk. He wasn't the real jerk. lol.

Haha I hated McEnroe. Just struck me as a spoiled brat. And they way he would pout and while always struck me as unmanly. He always seemed like a rich kid that was desperately overdue for an !!!GREENIAC!!!. But I think time has a way of doling at out justice. As the years pass, McEnroe's tennis accomplishments start to fade from the public consciousness, and what he is remembered for now is acting like a child on the court. Same with Laimbeer. A lot of people remember him playing like a gorilla in tennis shoes. A lot of people don't remember that he was multi-time all-star.