Defense: revisited

[BCHISTORIAN]

well it haven't been confirmed by the celts in fact.
although it's believed to be part of the trade exception

[ferbo]

I have seen that, but don't know whaat it really is and how it functions.

Curious what NO would get out of this?

[DERRENMATTS]

bchistorian said:

that was one of the best games for banks. the guy was unstoppable for a period in that game.

Yes, and if you notice, he was looking for his shot. That's the distinction I want to make: As a sparkplug scorer who comes in for 20 minutes a game (much like Ricky Davis' role), Marcus can excel and have an impactful role, much like how he did in Game 1. But as a starter, he's missing some stuff, primarily the efficient passing. If we are keeping Banks, Rivers needs to use him as a bench player who adds quick scoring and defensive pressure. I can certainly live with Banks in this role. Don't try to make him into a passing PG--its just wasting his talents and effectiveness.

[meltinjohn]

Maybe a 2nd rd pick.

[BCHISTORIAN]

derrenmatts said:

bchistorian said:

that was one of the best games for banks. the guy was unstoppable for a period in that game.

Yes, and if you notice, he was looking for his shot. That's the distinction I want to make: As a sparkplug scorer who comes in for 20 minutes a game (much like Ricky Davis' role), Marcus can excel and have an impactful role, much like how he did in Game 1. But as a starter, he's missing some stuff, primarily the efficient passing. If we are keeping Banks, Rivers needs to use him as a bench player who adds quick scoring and defensive pressure. I can certainly live with Banks in this role. Don't try to make him into a passing PG--its just wasting his talents and effectiveness.

and a waste of everybody's time.


ferbo it probably means that noh gets part of our trade exception which they can use when they want to. a second rounder is allegedly going their way as well

[meltinjohn]

So Danny is knocking off his 2nd rounders little by little starting with the Dickau trade.

I think Banks is staying. He does not have to be a passing pg to be effective. He can be known as one of the best defender pg's in the league even quite better than Bobby Jackson. I never even disliked his play regardless of all these trade rumors. He runs the uptempo game that doesn't need a true pg. I think Danny sees that now.

[BCHISTORIAN]

meltinjohn said:

I think Banks is staying. He does not have to be a passing pg to be effective. He can be known as one of the best defender pg's in the league even quite better than Bobby Jackson. I never even disliked his play regardless of all these trade rumors.

amen, mj! i've said it all along

[DERRENMATTS]

I don't. I see a few glaring holes in Banks' game (which I can overlook if he's only being asked to play as a sparkplug scorer and defensive catalyst). First of all, he really doesn't know how to lead a fast break, let alone the entire offense. His timing on setting up guys running alongside of him (or trailers) isn't sharp. Secondly, he's a sloppy dribbler, even when he's not trying to be flashy. He's got good handles when he's penetrating, or when he's on the move. But when he's not in that attacking mode, his dribbling gets sloppy (though this can be worked on with ease).

But I want to point out that I do think he has an excellent niche to fill as a backup or 3rd stringer. His quick scoring ability and especially his sticky defense off the bench, are big pluses. The more time I have to digest our roster, the more I think Banks is the best guy to fill this niche. In time, when Dickau's contract expires, Orien Greene may be able to fill the void in the depth chart (Delonte, Banks, Greene).

[BCHISTORIAN]

greene has a lot to prove before we can even start to count on him. i think of all the second rounders maybe only gomes may be on our eventual championship rotation

[DERRENMATTS]

For some reason, I have a hunch that Orien will turn out to be a keeper.

[BCHISTORIAN]

from what we've read he has all the tools. let's see how he uses them

[esco33]

I am not a pessimist, but more of a realist, although this post may seem pessimistic. I do not see us doing that much better record wise than last year, maybe worse. Here's why:

I think the losses of GP and Toine will hurt in the short term, and have greater benefit in the long run with the maturation of our young talent. To say that we will be better because GP is gone and we will run more, I don't think is a good theory.

We may run more, but that does not necessarily mean we will get better production from the point guard spot. The number one responsibility of a point guard is to distribute the ball to the other players and to not turn the ball over. We have inexperienced point guards who need to run a whole ball club. I predict Dickau will get most of the starts, because he is the truest point guard, with experience. But he is not better than Payton.

Toine being gone will hurt us even more in the short term. He single handedly helped us win 8-12 games last year with his grit, determination, B-ball IQ, and teamwork, something that our young bigs do not have yet. They are talented, but they have a LOT to learn.

I think ALL of the young players will play better than last year, and improve some and progress, but I do not think that it will compensate for the losses of 2 vets in GP and Toine.

If anything, I think the best that we can do is to match last year’s record. I just hope the combination of our youngen's progression can compensate for the loss of the two guys. Scal will help with some of Toine's abilities, but he is no Toine, and I think Dickau has a bright future in Boston, but he needs a little time to gel with his teammates. Hopefully he gets signed soon.

I predict that we will take a step back this year, and next year (06-07) is the year that the team will really start to move up in the standings. I say we get 7th or 8th seed in East.

[DERRENMATTS]

I feel what you are saying, Esco. I've had the same feeling for most of the summer. But I have begun to change my way of thinking over the recent weeks. By losing Payton, we no longer have a veteran PG who takes the ball handling pressure away from the young and inexperienced PG's. Here's 2 ways to look at this. 1). Though Payton was able to take care of the ball, he didn't run the offense how it should have been run. In many instances, he stopped our momentum, and possibly even stopped the momentum from even happening. Payton slowed down the offense immeasurably at times. 2). With the young PG's in place, Doc will be able to run the offense how he wants to run it, and not how Payton wanted to run it. It will be a more uptempo style of basketball, and it won't revolve around the PG handling the ball so often. We may get into the habit of thinking that Delonte or Dickau won't be able to do what Payton was able to do--but they won't be asked to do that. They won't be asked to run the offense the way Payton ran the offense. The new system calls for more ball movement and less individual players controlling the ball. Delonte and Dickau won't be handling the ball as much as Payton used to--they will be asked to get rid of the ball and get it to an open player, whereas Payton would circle around the perimeter with the ball trying to pick spots.

And it also changes things from the PG spot, now that we have PG's who can make outside shots more consistently. With Payton, this was hardly an option worth calling. With Delonte and Dickau, we can expect Doc to call plays for them to utilize their shooting abilities.

I agree that we will feel the sting of Walker's departure. He brought a sense of fire with him when he came back to Boston, and we'll see if it left with him when he was traded to Miami. But aside from this, Walker was a strong character who played physical in the paint and wasn't afraid to take the ball inside. He didn't play shy or timid. But we don't really know how Jefferson is going to play this year. He could easily make us forget about Walker. This kid is a dynamic scorer and rebounder, and he's easily one of the quickest, if not THE quickest PF in the league. But he could also struggle like most young kids tend to do. But that's why Ainge went out and got us a veteran PF. Brian Scalabrine will not erase our memories of Walker, but I feel much better about him being our backup than I felt with Googs being our backup last year.

But the biggest impact on our wins and losses will be how well we play defense. If we play defense better, we can do better than last year.

[esco33]

Derren, you make all valid points. I do believe that Delonte and West will in fact try to push the ball more. In the half court set, we will have to see, they may struggle a bit, although ultimately I think Dickau should be fine. (Expect to see a lot of pick and roll, pick and pop plays with him and Raef, because both can shoot the ball well).

We will miss Payton’s experience and leadership. That is for sure.

I honestly don't think that Jefferson alone will make us forget about Toine. I still say year 3 will be his breakout year. But a combination of him, Perk, Raef, and Veal playing solid and consistently may help us forget about Toine. Don't forget about Gomes also. He can rebound the basketball.

On a side note, I think Gomes may have the chance to crack the starting lineup right out of training camp, especially if T Allen is not ready to play right away.
(with Davis 6th man again)

I totally agree that for the long run and future of this team, letting Toine and Payton go was the right thing to do, but I am not as ready as a lot of people on this board to say that we will be a better team this season because of it. I think you may see the effects more next season. I think we will see flashes this year, and next year put it all together. Remember Big Al is a man-child, and he did turn some heads, but he is still only second year out of high school. He is no Lebron.

I think eventually though, he could turn out to be a J Oneal-type force down low consistently.

For now, let's hope the young guys progress sooner rather than later.

[BCHISTORIAN]

good discussion guys
i would underline two things as well:
1st - we will probably be worse on half court sets. since it's especially important in the play-offs we won't probably see second round (still believe we'll see the first ). i expect the youngsters to be way better at it by the time though
2nd is leadership - gp and aw were our two most vocal guys. they had experience by their side as well. this season i have a feeling it will be ricky, al and delonte. i think ricky (of all people) has done tremendous strides in this