My take on our moves

[DERRENMATTS]

Glad you survived your choke at the restaurant, Clem ;D

Just read that Darko is possibly looking for a 10 million dollar deal. If that's his asking price, I'm not interested. Orlando has no interest in re-signing him, now that they've got Rashard Lewis signed to the max deal. Hopefully teams will be smart and lowball him to bring down his asking price. I would like to sign him in the 6 - 7 mill range.

CF, I like your optimism. I also think we will go further than most critics may think. You just can't guard Pierce, Ray Allen, and Jefferson when they are on a roll. I thought last year's team should have made the playoffs (and we could have barring all the injuries)--now we have added a more impactful player in Ray Allen!! If we stay healthy, we will be in the playoffs.

[cfoo]

I'm optimistic that we will get a couple top years out of Ray. I went down the list of shooting guards and most guards his level do see a dropoff around 34 or 35. This is just me, but I compare him to the jerry rice of basketball players. just his style of play, he is all quickness and finesse. Rice saw a dropoff around the same age. When we brought in raef and wally they said they were fine, but you could tell ainge was just posturing. he knew raef's knee was screwed and still passed his physical. I actually believe ray. I think his ankles are fine and we will get 2 or 3 top years out of him. I'll knock on wood, but it works out perfectly because if we hang onto Gerald like we should, that is about the time he will be ready to take over.

[cfoo]

The next issue is what do we do from here to compliment these guys. It's going to be interesting how we manage to extend Jefferson without going into luxury tax territory, and being able to add a defensive presence in the middle at the same time. Camby makes sense because he makes less money than Ratliff. Guys like AK, GAsol, Oneal dont make a whole lot of sense for that reason. Plus giving up JEfferson for them makes 0 sense. GArnett is the only guy that makes some sense as to why we would swap Jefferson for him. We add a defensive presense and upgrade Jefferson at teh same time. Swapping Jefferson and Ratliff for Garnett is in essence like extending Jefferson financially while upgrading him for the here and now. I wouldn't necessarily do that but it is one deal that does make sense if we are looking to get Pierce a championship now. CAmby is another player that makes sense. Outside of that I have no idea. we may end up making a smaller move and just letting Ratliffs contract expire so we can extend Al.

[eja117]

cf00 said:

I'd like to get Pierce a championship and get him into the hall of fame. He is a great player that has played on some pretty bad teams. If we are keeping Pierce around we really need to get him a championship.

See this is a huge issue I have had with the Celts for years. The Pats figured this out a long time ago. The Pats know not to do stupid things like pay a wide reciever more than a QB, or pay a QB $100 mill, or pay a lineman much of anything.

The entire idea of trying to build a championship team around PP was and still is absolutely ludicrous. The only swing men in the league that deserve max contracts are Lebron and DWade.

The only swing men who ever led their team to a championship was

MJ.....that's it. MJ. Wade and Kobe were entirely incidental to Shaq and we're seeing that now where Kobe (who does not deserve a max contract) can barely get his team into the playoffs).

Maybe someday Lebron will lead his team. If you want to consider Bird a swing then fine.

The only players in the league who deserve max contracts are

Lebron
KG
Duncan
Nash
Amare
Dirk

that's it.

If you give a max contract to a Carmelo Anthony you will not win a championship. You will only make it impossible.

This is why the Pistons are the only team without Shaq or Duncan to win a single championship in the last decade. And did any of their players have a max contract? Of course not.

Now imagine Kobe with Ray Allen. Do they win a championship? Now give them Al J. Do they win now? You know what happens when they bump into Duncan, the Mavs, or the Suns. THUD!

The trouble started when they gave Toine a max contract when they were being handed out like candy. So then PP needed one too of course. Then they compounded their trouble when they traded for like 90 years of Raef, gave Blount a lot of money, reupped PP, signed Scala.

If it had been me PP would have been gone and we would have had some other good swing for a LOT less money. Like a Josh Howard or Rip Hamilton. We would be offering fair money to AL. We'd be a lot closer to the cap. We'd have good role players all locked up for reasonable money like Gomes and Delonte. We'd be the Pistons. Instead DA acts like the team is a rubics cube. Not even a jigsaw puzzle.

[DERRENMATTS]

I think getting another defensive Center is absolutely necessary for us to step into the playoffs. Even if he's not an upgrade over Perk, if we can have a solid 2 man rotation at the 5--having 2 solid shot blocking and rebounding big men--that will be enough for us to make some noise in the east.

Essentially, we don't need a star Center to win a title. With Jefferson, Pierce, and Ray Allen being our star players and scorers, we just need our Centers to go out, block shots, and rebound. Perk should be able to give us 25 good minutes on the floor, cleaning up 7 - 8 boards and giving us 2 bpg. If we can acquire another solid defensive big man who can fill in while Perk is on the bench, we're in good shape to be at Chicago's and Washington's level.

[cfoo]

See I disagree with that EJA. How many Lebron james, Duncan's are out there. Can we draft one? No we cant. We aren't getting those guys. I'm not saying we build around Pierce, but I think Pierce is a great player who can win a championship with the right pieces. You are saying if it were up to you, you would have traded Pierce a long time ago. I dont disagree with that, but for what? It's not like we don't have the ability to put a solid team around Pierce and keep pierce at the same time, max contract or not. The thing is if Wyc wants him here. If we wants Ray. He has to open up his wallet at some point. We may have to go over the luxury tax at some point. If we are building a team of mid tier level players at around 8 to 10 mil then great, I understand the pistons theory but that fell apart pretty quick as well, and Dumars is eating it right now. Now these guys want more money and the pistons are screwed. Also have you ever noticed how the pistons have a crappy bench? their starters are eating 90% of their cap. They !!!GREENIAC!!! up with Milicic and lost any chance of having a good player for cheap. If you look at the celtics we have 2 max players in Pierce and Allen. Jefferson is probably going to get 8-10 mil. We have talent, but its young talent and its fairly cheap right now. Guys like Rondo arent going to be making anything for the next 3 years and he could be an impact player for us. Jefferson is making change right now. Perk is a bargain. Same goes for Gerald, etc, etc.. They just need to start playing to their potential and the way the contracts are set up Pierce, Allen's contracts expire around the time we are going to need the money.

I've been looking at the salary cap a bit of late and this team will be alright. We dont have money to spend right now but we do have Ratliff which could equal a player for us, and we do have enough to extend the players we have. I also think there is a possibility there is more to the garnett thing but who knows.... I'm not saying I don't agree with you and there aren't better ways of utilizing the cap but if you expect us to be a contender with mid tier players and young guys and be able to afford all those guys its the same double edged sword.

[freshnthehouse]

eja117 said:

The only swing men who ever led their team to a championship was

MJ.....that's it. MJ. Wade and Kobe were entirely incidental to Shaq and we're seeing that now where Kobe (who does not deserve a max contract) can barely get his team into the playoffs).

I hate(love) to nit-pick, but the 75 Warriors were led by none other than everyone's favorite jerk, Mr. Rick Barry.

[eja117]

derrenmatts said:

I think getting another defensive Center is absolutely necessary for us to step into the playoffs. Even if he's not an upgrade over Perk, if we can have a solid 2 man rotation at the 5--having 2 solid shot blocking and rebounding big men--that will be enough for us to make some noise in the east.

Essentially, we don't need a star Center to win a title. With Jefferson, Pierce, and Ray Allen being our star players and scorers, we just need our Centers to go out, block shots, and rebound. Perk should be able to give us 25 good minutes on the floor, cleaning up 7 - 8 boards and giving us 2 bpg. If we can acquire another solid defensive big man who can fill in while Perk is on the bench, we're in good shape to be at Chicago's and Washington's level.

I agree but those teams are nowhere near championship level. What we need from a Perk is to be our version of Ben Wallace. It's just that he was defensive player of the year twice and was backed up by other defensive guys

[eja117]

Teams have to play an NBA version of money ball. Very few teams are doing it. The kind of team that's doing it right is basically the Jazz. Another team that's doing it right is the Bobcats, but they were an expansion team and I'm pretty sure MJ will screw them up soon. Another team that is doing it patiently is the Hawks. Building through the draft the way they are supposed to.
Teams doing it wrong are the ones throwing huge money at quick fixes.

I would have traded PP for players that are very good, get paid reasonably, and front court guys. If you have 4 AL Js you'll win the championship. If you have 3 and a Perk you'll win with nearly any competent wings. I would have wanted someone like Tayshaun Prince.

[DERRENMATTS]

I agree but those teams are nowhere near championship level. What we need from a Perk is to be our version of Ben Wallace. It's just that he was defensive player of the year twice and was backed up by other defensive guys

I threw Chicago's and Washington's name out there because that's the level we'll be if we get ourselves another defensive minded, rebounding Center (Camby?) to go along with Perkins. In no way do I think we will be a championship caliber team at this present time. Not until Jefferson and Gerald are playing at their top levels, and not unti the rest of the young players are playing at their top levels as well.

[cfoo]

Utah is paying Kirelenko 15 mil. Atlanta is paying JJ 13 mil. We are paying pierce a couple million more. Who would you rather have? I know what you are saying eja, and if we could completely build through the draft i would, but atlanta and utah are poor examples. Atlanta has drafted but they really havent hit on most of their picks. Utah has built their team with mid tier veteran players and a good coach. I like what utah has done, but I don't see them winning a championship either.

[cfoo]

Anyways the point is we have 3 mid tier pieces potentially in Rondo, Green and Jefferson. Plus we have Pierce and Allen. So why is that bad? Yeah we could have kept drafting and traded Pierce for who knows what. We could have had Roy, Yi etc if Ainge drafted perfectly, and traded Pierce for a couple mid tier players possibly. We'd still be stuck with Wally. But we have a pretty deep roster already with Gomes, Allen, Green, Perk, Big Baby, Jefferson, Rondo etc.. So is (2 rookies roy and yi, and a couple mid tier guys if we traded pierce) greater than (Pierce, Allen and Telfair)? We have 2 vets to carry us a bit and we have youth as well. I'm not saying I agree with what Ainge has done, but it's not that bad. We have a pretty good mix is all I'm saying.

we also have to be able to play all these guys remember. We are going to get a player out of Ratliff as well. If we are going your route eja how do we play all these guys? The way we are going we keep the 2 best players Pierce and Allen and we arent overstacked. I think its about right.

Anyways EJA, you want to build with 5 mid tier upper level players ie jefferson's. If we trade ratliff for someone good, we will have 3 mid tier upper level players and 2 all stars. Right now we have Rondo, Pierce, Allen, Jefferson. We have 2 jeffersons, considering i think Rondo is as valuable as jefferson, and 2 allstars. We are missing that piece in the middle. We didnt get oden, but i think we are going to make something happen to get a player in the middle. We have Perk who is a step below but its not like he's bad. You can say we could have traded Pierce for Gordon and Tyrus Thomas or something, and I like that, but it could be argued that we are doing better than that.

I think Ainge is trying to do both and get this team on the winning track. I would rather go your route EJA and just build this ridiculous stacked team through the draft and by shrewd trading and by trading pierce, but that would ultimately blow up as well because there is no way we would be able to pay and play all those guys. Ainge has gone with more of a balance and tried to do both win now and build for the future which is ok if Allen gives us 3 good years. We need a center and a pg with experience. This team will be a lot better than you think EJA if we get those 2 things this offseason without sacrificing our core.

[eja117]

There are only a couple problems with Utah. One is that AK got hurt and hasn't played well. If he played the way he used to they'd clearly be a top 4 team in the West, and may be anyway. They have no good backup center. Picking Paul Milsap in the 2nd round helps even out those problems. Also they don't have much in terms of shooting guards but they just drafted Morris Almond to go with Ronnie Brewer from last year and CJ Miles. They are a team that hasn't drafted perfect at all. They picked Derron Williams over Chris Paul. But they are in a position where they can recover from their mistakes for years to come. You don't see them doing anything dumb.

Atlanta hasn't drafted perfect at all either, but they do have this to show for drafts
Marvin Williams
Al Horford
Acie Law
Shelden Williams
Josh Smith
Josh Childress

every single one a fine chip and added to reasonable signings that didn't break the bank like Ty Lue, and Speedy Claxton

We still have the exact same problems you mentioned of keeping all our talent and finding minutes for them. In and of itself it's not that we're not talented. It's that we have too much money in the wrong place. If Atlanta pays one of those players or two of them the max the way we did it's all over for them.

Now if you look at their list and look at what we could have had, we could have had last year's rookie of the year at shooting guard. Then we could have traded GG for a top pick this year. We could have had something like 2 of the three (Noah, Brendan Wright, Spencer Hawes) to go with Al J, Rondo, and Brandon Roy. Then we could have traded PP for something like a good player like Jason Richardson and the Golden State picks. That was Bellineli. Now you're looking at this roster

Rondo, West, Pruitt, Ray
Brandon Roy, Tony Allen
Jason Richardson, Bellineli, Gomes
Al J, Brendan Wright, Powe,
Perk, Noah, Scala

And we still have Ratliff. In 3 or 4 years I'm not sure who beats that roster. All we'd have to do is keep it together. You're putting Rondo, and AL J with last year's rookie of the year and two top ten picks. That's how you build a championship team. Not give too much money to 30 year olds.

[cfoo]

that's my point though eja. there is no way we can play and pay all those guys. the team we have now is much better at the top and we are still deep. Id take Ray Allen and Pierce over Roy and Richardson any day of the week and we are still deep. We need to trade Ratliff to give us a center and get ourselves a backup pg is all. We need to upgrade Ratliff and Telfair somehow. And they could step up this year for all we know. I'm not counting on that. Id rather trade them and upgrade them. Say we get Camby or another good player in here. We'll be looking pretty good.

And what happened to Wally and ratliff on your roster? you cant just trade PP for Jrich and a bunch of rookies and say thats it, salaries have to match up. If this were the nfl in the late 80's where we can trade Herschel walker for a bunch of draft picks that would be great, but it doesnt work that way anymore.

Me personally I look at our roster currently and that roster you list and I think player for player our roster is greater.

Rondo=Rondo
West>Telfair
Allen and Roy are debatable, but I'd take Allen in a heartbeart right now
Pierce>Jrich
Green>Bellini
Jefferson=Jefferson
Perk=Perk

you have more depth in the frontcourt, which we will add with Ratliff's contract. Just wait. If you are comparing Camby or Ilgauskis or whoever and Big Baby, vs Noah and Wright its pretty even for what we need. Noah and Wright off the bench is kind of overkill. The point is we have a mix of veteran and young players which should be better longterm. That team you have would blow up once players contracts run out because Noah and WRight are not going to stay here when they can start somewhere else and get more money elsewhere. There are so many problems with that roster. Roy is going to want 10 mil in 3 years. Jefferson is going to want that next year. Rondo, Jrich is making a pretty penny. That's 50 mil in our starting lineup. How do we pay those guys. We'd have players walking out the door in 3 years anyways no matter how old they are. What Ainge is doing is setting us up financially longterm whether you realize that or not. Ray Allens contract will expire. We will be able to extend Gerald at a reduced rate and extend Rondo as well. Who's better Gerald or Roy? That's debatable. We are set up nicely longterm. With your roster we'd have to give about 5 guys 10 mil in 3 years.

[eja117]

First of all it is not at all debateable whether Roy is better than Green. Maybe in two years, not now.
J Rich was traded straight up for B Wright and so I figure PP could be traded for him.

You are right that our team is better now. Whoop de doo. 7th seed. Maybe even 3rd. Who cares?

You say all these guys like Noah would leave in three years? Whose to say they'd be good enough? And why can't TA,Gomes, and GG leave in the next two years?

You take Ray Allen and PP over J Rich and Roy now. What about 2 or three years from now when because of their salaries we can't sign anyone and they are all hurt right as Al J is getting good? Basically ever trade DA makes has like a 2 year window of getting better and then there's a huge pill and he just kept extending that. That's not how you build a team.