|
|
Post by The Eye of the Q is upon you! on Apr 12, 2007 12:40:42 GMT -5
Brian Costello -
Tony Allen, shooting guard, Boston Celtics. The Celtics need to decide what they're trying to build -- the Gerald Green team or the Paul Pierce team. Until that happens, the team will remain stuck in the middle and mired in mediocrity.
Allen was one of the year's better breakthrough stories before a knee injury ended his season. In eighteen games as a starter (16.4 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 2.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 51.9 FG%, 79.4 FT%) he was nothing short of spectacular, and it would have been interesting to see what he and Pierce could have accomplished together all season.
The writing is on the wall for the Celtics. The only young player they have with trade value is Al Jefferson, who isn't going anywhere, and it makes no sense whatsoever to trade the upcoming lottery pick. The net result is that Pierce will be traded this offseason, paving the way for the new guard and benefiting Allen more than anyone.
So what will trading Pierce, Gomes, and West get you on the open market? Can we work a deal with Detriot for Chauncey Billups and McDyess?
|
|
|
|
Post by FLCeltsFan on Apr 12, 2007 12:44:25 GMT -5
Q, I have been having a lot of the same thoughts. I like Pierce. It would be ideal to have him retire as a Celtic, but I am not so sure he fits this team any more, especially if we get Durant.
We could possibly do a Gasol for Pierce straight up.... Or maybe a Garnett for Pierce .... Billups and McDyess sounds good...
|
|
|
|
Post by eja117 on Apr 12, 2007 13:27:46 GMT -5
I would think we'd try to trade PP, possibly Scala, Ray, and Bassy and if we don't get one of the top two then the pick as well. Maybe even Wally if we got lucky. I'd assume we wouldn't trade our most talented (West) players or one of our most productive (West and Gomes). I assmue we'd go for a young big man that someone might actually part with. Maybe Bynum or Bogut. Considering we're offering a multiple all-star we might even get an Aldridge. Pau is still a possibility. Some unhappy bigs could happen as well such as a KG or a JON.
|
|
|
|
Post by freshnthehouse on Apr 12, 2007 14:49:04 GMT -5
IF we were to trade Pierce, I'd love to see us work out a deal w/ Charlotte. The BObcats are way under the cap, so we wouldnt have to take back an equal contract(s). Pierce for thier 1st pick and a 09 first? Sounds pretty good to me.
The one trade I want to see is something Theo + youngn(prolly will have to be green) for Mike BIbby. We'd have a hell of a starting line w/ Bibby on the team.
|
|
|
|
Post by eja117 on Apr 12, 2007 15:30:24 GMT -5
I'm a little nervous about the way Bibby had a pretty bad year. But he always had good ones before. He was also drafted the same year as PP so he's getting old. I also think Rondo is going to be significantly better than him. Right now Rondo is averaging very respectable assists passing to guys like Ray and Powe and Pinkney. If he were passing to Al and PP his assists would be even better.
Tommy last night was saying we haven't had a pg that can get to the hoop like Rondo in forever. We haven't had one that can pass like that in forever either. When was the last time? Sherm? It sure as heck wasn't Billups.
In two to three years with Rondo starting and West backing him up that's the best pg combo in the league and maybe that the league has seen in a long time, if ever. Passing to one of the top 3 big forwards in the league and a 31 year old PP, which is still darn good. That's what we are looking at at a bare minimum. Add in GG who is already like a Darius Miles at his absolute best with a really good attitude, wiith a ton of room to improve. Then we have Perk, and even though some experts out there say he is a backup on a good team at best, well since that's what we aim to become that's just fine, and I have to think that's not what Chris Bosh was thinking when Perk was beating up on him. And we have Gomes who just added a 3 point shot to his arsenal.
All that is why I don't buy this whole - we need a vet thing - cause I'd rather have a ton of really good vets in 3 years than an ok vet right now.
For example. Wally. He's a great guy. Good player. And we have him right now. Yay. Don't need him. Doesn't help us. Don't care. Just a vet. Not a savior.
|
|
|
|
Post by Roadrunner on Apr 12, 2007 22:26:15 GMT -5
10 years ago, the Celtics would never have thought about trading an aging veteran, like Pierce. In today's business, its fair game.  |
|
|
|
Post by DERRENMATTS on Apr 12, 2007 23:53:57 GMT -5
Jermaine O'Neal could be leaving Indiana this summer. Seems like they are heading for a divorce. He's aging quickly and seems to be injured a lot, and that bothers me. But if we're looking for a proven veteran big man who can still put up big numbers, JO is still one of them
I like Gasol also, but I don't think Pierce will quietly go to the poor Memphis franchise. Maybe he may be alright with Indiana.
|
|
|
|
Post by freshnthehouse on Apr 13, 2007 1:43:17 GMT -5
I also think Rondo is going to be significantly better than him. Right now Rondo is averaging very respectable assists passing to guys like Ray and Powe and Pinkney. If he were passing to Al and PP his assists would be even better. Tommy last night was saying we haven't had a pg that can get to the hoop like Rondo in forever. We haven't had one that can pass like that in forever either. When was the last time? Sherm? It sure as heck wasn't Billups. I think there is a chance that Rondo could be as good as BIbby(I wouldnt bet on it, but it could happen), and I'm all for Rondo being the heir apparent to the C's point guard chores. That's the beauty of Bibby. He's got two years left on his deal. I can't think of a better guy for Rondo to play behind for a couple of years. And Bibby would give us the most playoff savvy PG we've had since DJ. Really? Man, I can think of 5 PG comos right now that I'd trade those two str8 up for. I could think of 50 all time PG combos that will be better than those 2 will be. |
|
|
|
Post by eja117 on Apr 13, 2007 13:57:08 GMT -5
There is a big difference between a combo you'd trade for right now (like maybe Kidd and M Williams) and a combo that will be better than them in "two to three years".
To be fair there are some guys that are excellent and may be worth two guys by themselves even in two to three years, such as Nash.
I admit I just don't like Paul but even if I did who is his backup? Pargo? Bobby Jackson?
Old guys who may be better right now won't be valuable in two to three years. Sam Cassell and Livingston are a good example. Cassell is getting pretty old and Livingston just busted up his knee. I wouldn't trade for them.
I wouldn't take Heinrich and Duhon, partly cause I think Duhon isn't good.
I wouldn't take Derron Williams and anybody (Dee Brown or Derek Fisher) over our guys even if he had a good year.
I wouldn't take a healthy Ridnour and Earl Watson.
I wouldn't take TJ Ford and Juan Dixon and that Euro
I wouldn't take Felton and Knight and certianly not 2 or 3 years from now
You may like Boykins, but I think the novelty of a 5ft 5 backup and Mo Williams would run out real fast.
I don't like scoring "point guards" like Arenas.
There are probably lots of excellent point guards in league history but the better the pg the less good the backup has to be. West has already proven himself better than many starting pgs in the league.
The only thing I'm doing here is projecting how good I think Rondo can be. I think if you take his best game he had this year. He could, with a good healthy team, in two years have nights like that maybe 8 times out of ten and sometimes much better. And West would also only get better with a better team around him.
|
|
|
|
Post by freshnthehouse on Apr 13, 2007 15:05:04 GMT -5
There is a big difference between a combo you'd trade for right now (like maybe Kidd and M Williams) and a combo that will be better than them in "two to three years". To be fair there are some guys that are excellent and may be worth two guys by themselves even in two to three years, such as Nash. I admit I just don't like Paul but even if I did who is his backup? Pargo? Bobby Jackson? Old guys who may be better right now won't be valuable in two to three years. Sam Cassell and Livingston are a good example. Cassell is getting pretty old and Livingston just busted up his knee. I wouldn't trade for them. I wouldn't take Heinrich and Duhon, partly cause I think Duhon isn't good. I wouldn't take Derron Williams and anybody (Dee Brown or Derek Fisher) over our guys even if he had a good year. I wouldn't take a healthy Ridnour and Earl Watson. I wouldn't take TJ Ford and Juan Dixon and that Euro I wouldn't take Felton and Knight and certianly not 2 or 3 years from now You may like Boykins, but I think the novelty of a 5ft 5 backup and Mo Williams would run out real fast. I don't like scoring "point guards" like Arenas. There are probably lots of excellent point guards in league history but the better the pg the less good the backup has to be. West has already proven himself better than many starting pgs in the league. The only thing I'm doing here is projecting how good I think Rondo can be. I think if you take his best game he had this year. He could, with a good healthy team, in two years have nights like that maybe 8 times out of ten and sometimes much better. And West would also only get better with a better team around him. Combos I'd take now: CPaul and whoever (doesnt matter who is back-up is. He's so much better than our guys it makes the back-up part irrelevant). DWilliams and DFischer HInrich and Duhon GArenas and ADaniels SNash and Barbosa Casell and Livingston(on SL's potential alone) TParker and Udrik If you count him as a PG, DWade and JWilliams Felton and Knight BDavis and MEllis(if we are just talking talent for talnet. i wouldnt want to take on BDavis' contract). And that's just currently. We'd be here all day if i went through all-time combos that are better than ROndo and West. |
|
|
|
Post by eja117 on Apr 13, 2007 15:44:51 GMT -5
For the Heat Jason WIll has been hurt a lot and D Wade is listed as a shooting guard
M Ellis is also listed as a sg.
If you want to point to Heinrich as better I would agree but West is light years ahead of Duhon. He is also light years ahead of other players on this list like old man Antonio Daniels, Udrih, and Fisher.
Taking these combos over Rondo and West for the next decade just cause they might be better now is shortsighted. That's why I said 2 to three years
I agree with your general idea that it doesn't matter who a backup is in some cases, but the reason backups matter is cause starters can get hurt, which happened this year to 5 of the above combos.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Eye of the Q is upon you! on Apr 14, 2007 13:47:32 GMT -5
I'm afraid Pierce will fall into one of those veterans being injured chronically with horrible contracts lists:
Kidd, O'Neal (both the Miami one and Indiana one), Kirilenko, Boozer, Ben Wallace, 1/2 the Bricks team, Sczerbiak, Ratliffe, LaFrentz.
The only good veteran soldier under contract that could be available is Garnett.... What would it take to get Garnett? Wally, Pierce, and the #5 would work for me. Would it work for the Minnesotans?
|
|
|
|
Post by eja117 on Apr 14, 2007 14:23:12 GMT -5
If KG wants to get out of there and they were offered say PP, the 3rd pick, the future pick they sent us, Powe, Bassy, and Theo they'd be nuts not to take it. That's a perenial all-star, 3 young players, a future pick, and a pretty big expiring contract. It would fix all their KG related problems. It's all they could expect to get for an unhappy older player with such a huge contract who never won anything. They'd demand Al J. They'd never get it. I don't think it will happen
|
|
|
|
Post by freshnthehouse on Apr 14, 2007 15:21:41 GMT -5
For the Heat Jason WIll has been hurt a lot and D Wade is listed as a shooting guard Yeah, DWade doesnt play PG nearly as much as he did early on. He's up in the air. I'd say he's about as much of a PG as Delonte is. I'd say the gap between Heinrich and ROndo is greater than the gap between West and Duhon. I'd still take every group I named three years from now over Rondo and West. And so would every GM in the league. Back-ups matter, to a point. But premium talent is still what this league is all about. It's easy to find guys like Delonte West and Rajon Rondo. It's not easy to find guys like Chris Paul. |
|
|
|
Post by freshnthehouse on Apr 14, 2007 15:24:14 GMT -5
The only good veteran soldier under contract that could be available is Garnett.... What would it take to get Garnett? Wally, Pierce, and the #5 would work for me. Would it work for the Minnesotans? Adding Wally to the trade only sours the pot, so remove him. Pierce wouldnt go to Minny and Minny wouldnt really want him, so that would nix it as well. But the pick would be a fine starting spot. My guess is AlJeff, the pick and Theo would open their ears. |
|
