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Post by freshnthehouse on Apr 14, 2007 15:28:56 GMT -5
If KG wants to get out of there and they were offered say PP, the 3rd pick, the future pick they sent us, Powe, Bassy, and Theo they'd be nuts not to take it. That's a perenial all-star, 3 young players, a future pick, and a pretty big expiring contract. It would fix all their KG related problems. THey wouldnt want PP, and PP would refuse to go there anyways. If Minny is going to dump KG, its going to be the start of a major rebuild. All PP would do is keep them good enough not to get a top 5 pick, just like Kg is doing right now. Telfair is garbage. Powe is garbage. The pick would a major trade piece. So why would they trade him for another unhappy older player with a huge contract who has never won anything, and isnt nearly as good as him to boot? A good pick and pile of crap isnt nearly enough to make them do that trade. |
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Post by eja117 on Apr 14, 2007 18:30:26 GMT -5
The only good veteran soldier under contract that could be available is Garnett.... What would it take to get Garnett? Wally, Pierce, and the #5 would work for me. Would it work for the Minnesotans? Adding Wally to the trade only sours the pot, so remove him. Pierce wouldnt go to Minny and Minny wouldnt really want him, so that would nix it as well. But the pick would be a fine starting spot. My guess is AlJeff, the pick and Theo would open their ears. I imagine offering Al J might open their ears. If we get Oden maybe we could offer that too, but I don't think we'll be doing that either. We also probably won't be offering Lucky's Pot of gold, or Red's tombstone either. And if DA finds the Holy Grail tomorrow and we offered that, I could see how that would maybe open their ears too. And since they won't be taking PP in any trades maybe Minnesotta should try to hold out for Lebron or Novitski or Duncan, since it would take a lot to get KG. I could see why someone would call Powe garbage even though he'll probably have a moderatley long and productive career as a backup or better. I can also understand why someone would call Bassy garbage even though he is still a young and highly talented player, but they took garbage last time. Banks? Blount? Reed? Ricky Davis? For Kandi, a pick, and Wally. They got 2 cancers, a bad player, and a career backup. DA FLEECED them on that. Maybe they'd do something dumb again. |
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Post by eja117 on Apr 14, 2007 20:19:28 GMT -5
He's up in the air. I'd say he's about as much of a PG as Delonte is. I'd say the gap between Heinrich and ROndo is greater than the gap between West and Duhon. I'd still take every group I named three years from now over Rondo and West. And so would every GM in the league. Fresh i didn't realize you talk to all the GMs in the league. That's pretty amazing. Why didn't you say so earlier? West's Assits to TO ratio is 4.4/2 and Ellis' is 4.2/2.9 making West the significantly better pg, although he has 3 college and one NBA season on Ellis as well as the fact West gets hurt more. I don't blame anyone for taking a Heinrich over Rondo. The guy is proven and Rondo has a ways to go. I just see that as like when I was all about trading AL J for the Chris Boshes of the world that he has clearly surpassed. I think I might check out his numbers over the last two months vs Elton Brand's cause I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's better. Maybe I should look at Rondo's too. I just think Rondo is already the best pg we've had since .... DJ? Can you think of one better? DJ was pretty good. I think trading Rondo for Billups would be a pretty big mistake. Rondo is clearly the best pg in his draft class...which actually isn't saying much. He'd be the pg of this draft too, unless you think Conley will be better which is possible. |
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Post by freshnthehouse on Apr 15, 2007 7:05:31 GMT -5
I just see that as like when I was all about trading AL J for the Chris Boshes of the world that he has clearly surpassed. How can you say he's c;early surpassed CBosh? Bosh is putting up numbers on a playoff team. AlJeff is putting up numbers on the 2nd worst team in basketball. He's def. the best PG prospect we've had since Billups. Currently, he's not better than KAnderson was when he was here. Or Sherman Douglas or Dee Brown. I wouldnt trade Rondo for Billups, just because of the ungodly contract Billups is going to demand this off-season. Talent-wise, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And yeah, Rondo is the best PG prospect of this draft, which is def. not saying much. I dont want all this to come off like I dont like Rondo. I do. I think he could someday become a very good PG. But I think listing him as a poss all-time anything is on the verge of a critical kool-aid overdose. In the early 60s, the Celtics were lucky to have 2 HOF PGs on their roster at the same time (Coust, KJones). Do you really think that a Rondo Dwest combo will be better than that? |
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Post by eja117 on Apr 15, 2007 12:52:27 GMT -5
I have done some research. One thing I found was that in their last 20 games Al j and Bosh have been very very close to each other and I would give Bosh the slight advantage, except for the fact that the last time they went head to head I think Bosh got his azz kicked by Al j
I don't buy the "putting up numbers on a playoff team argument". For one thing Bron put up numbers his first year on a nonplayoff team and nobody complained. Anthony Parker puts up numbers for the Raptors and nobody suggests he is better than PP. The Bobcats are missing the playoffs but that doesn't mean Emeka is so much worse than Bosh.
Next I have compared Rondo's last 20 games to Hinrich's.
When you combine rebounds and assists Rondo out performed Hinrich by 22. He also had 45 combined steals and blocks against hinrich's 30. he had 5 less fouls and 12 less TOs. This is all in Rondo's rookie year. So what's the catch? hinrich had far better FT% and identical FG% despite attempting 92 3 pointers against Rondo's 8. What does that translate to? An extra 210 points. So basically Rondo needs to start hitting more shots. But clearly Rondo has the ability to be a very competitive pg very soon.
Fair enough. Rondo might not be top 50 all time. Not yet. But isn't Hinrich one of the best of this time? Well when it comes to certain measures Rondo is already better.
While comparing Rondo to nearly all the elite pgs in the league his defensive numbers are better than all of them and he outrebounded almost all except Kidd.
So looking at someone closer to his age, but with more NBA experience I compared Rondo's last 20 games to Livingston's best 20 game stretch when he was starting when Cassell was down and I like Rondo's #s better. Livingston had better ft% but was even worse with 3s (barely 1 for 7 vs 2 for 8). That translated to an extra 52 points. Rondo was a tiny bit better on both fouls and TOs. Livingston despite being outrebounded by a much shorter player had an extra 2 assists and rebounds combined. Rondo had 45 steals/blks to Livingston's 29.
We just have to face facts that Rondo is the best pg in this draft or the last one and one of the best young pgs today.
Next of course I can't compare Cousy/KC to Rondo/West yet. I also can't compare it to the time the Suns coached by DA had Kidd, Nash, and KJ. When the league was half as big and there was almost no free agency things were pretty different, but I definitely think these guys can be one of the best of their time. If you think of it that way that kinda makes them a 50 best all time if they get there.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Apr 15, 2007 17:23:42 GMT -5
I have done some research. One thing I found was that in their last 20 games Al j and Bosh have been very very close to each other and I would give Bosh the slight advantage, except for the fact that the last time they went head to head I think Bosh got his azz kicked by Al j In head to head matchups this year, AlJeff averaged 16.3/7.8. Bosh averaged 23.3/9.5. Bosh had slight lead in blocks. Aljeff had big lead in fg%. [/quote]I don't buy the "putting up numbers on a playoff team argument". For one thing Bron put up numbers his first year on a nonplayoff team and nobody complained. Anthony Parker puts up numbers for the Raptors and nobody suggests he is better than PP. The Bobcats are missing the playoffs but that doesn't mean Emeka is so much worse than Bosh.[/quote] I'm not saying that you can just dismiss what a player does statistically on a crappy team, but you have to look at those # skeptically. There is a reason DDickeau averaged 13/7 in the 2nd of his last season with the hornets, yet has never(and will never) come close to those # with any other team. It is because that team was awful, and they needed someone to run the show, now matter how crappy that player is. Same goes with Dana Barros' 20/10 season with Philly. As his numbers show, he never came close to those #s again. Rondo has the ability to be a very good PG IF he learns how to shoot. THat's a humongous if. As long as he stays near the level he's at, he is going to be a huge detriment to this team, no matter how good his defense is. That's why a lot of scouts still think of him as being a long-term back-up PG. Yeah, I'd say Heinrich is around 7-10 best. What defensive #s are you talking about? I'm not doubting it, jsut a little curious. Barring the knee injury, I'd still take Livingston over Rondo. So would every GM in the league. I think it's a little presumptious to say that Rondo is better than any PG in this year's draft when we haven't even had the draft yet. But besides COnley jr., I'd prolly tkae Rondo over any of the PG prospects in this year's draft. You already compared them when you said that the Rondo/West PG combo could become one of the best combos ever. That's a comparision. |
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Post by eja117 on Apr 15, 2007 19:24:09 GMT -5
I meant I can't compare them favorably.
Isn't Hinrich an all-star? Doesn't that make him top 4? He was on the Olympic team with Coach K.
I think it's a little presumptious to say every GM in the league would od this or that. For one thing I assume Rondo's shooting will improve or at least not get worse. Second even if it didn't improve he is a better pg than Livingston right now even though he hasn't played in the NBA nearly as long. Plus Livingston did have a knee injury and that makes a difference.
When you combine Rondos steals and blocks he had far more than any pg I looked at. He is a tremendous defender.
Bosh's head to head numbers this year are skewed because it took a full year for Al to develop and get to Bosh's level. Right now as we speak D Howard has about 9 points to Al's 20. Al has emerged. He'll continue to emerge. He's not getting points cause the ball has to go to someone. Everyone knows he is now the best player on the team (except maybe PP if you think of it that way). The player that's putting up some garbage points right now would be GG. Not Al.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Apr 15, 2007 22:23:09 GMT -5
I meant I can't compare them favorably. Why not? Nash, Parker, Paul, Arenas, DWilliams, BDavis, and Billups are better than Hienrich. I would put Hienrich just after these guys, along with Andre Miller and Barbosa. It's not all that presumptious when everyone that follows the NBA knows its true. Can you honestly say that not every GM wouldnt have taken a pre-injury Livingston over Rondo? [/quote]When you combine Rondos steals and blocks he had far more than any pg I looked at. He is a tremendous defender.[/quote] his numbers as a starter are good, but I wouldnt say they are far more than any other PG. And again, he's only done it for 20 games. But there is no doubt the dude can D up. Aljeff was starting in all but one of our games w/ Toronto. I don't get what you're saying about DHoward. PPierce is the best player on this team. We wouldnt have lost close to 60 games this year if All had been hurt and Pierce had been healthy. For the time being, Pierce is still our best player. |
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Post by eja117 on Apr 16, 2007 9:39:47 GMT -5
What I mean when I say I can't compare West and Rondo favorably to Cousy and KC is that there is no way on Earth I can say they are better or likely to ever be better than those guys. In fact I'm not sure there are almost any combos that can compare to that.
I am just curious about one thing here. You are saying all these guys are better than these guys. What criteria are you using? I haven't looked at the stats that carefully between all these guys.
One thing about some of those "point guards". When you look at the stats or at the style of play Barbosa, Billups, Davis, and especially Arenas are much more like shooting guards that just happen to pass from time to time. They are not shoot first point guards. They are mostly listed as point guards for the same reason as Iverson, and Starburry which is that they are under 6ft 5. Has a team with that kind of pg other than Billup's Pistons ever won a championship? It's kind of rare I think.
I would point out one other thing. For some of these guys if you switched Rondo with them you'd see some pretty big changes. If Rondo were passing to Duncan and Parker were passing to Allen Ray you'd see some pretty big changes stats wise. During the last 20 games Rondo had almost nobody to pass to. PP was out a lot. West was out a lot. Al J was out some. Gomes missed a few games. His two best teammates for most of that time were Al J who I assume was doubled quite often and GG who clearly often has no idea what he's doing. It's quite likely that if he traded places with some of these guys Rondo would have gone from like 5 assists per game to 8 or 9. I just wanted to point that out. Rondo has been growing despite serious road blocks.
I'm not saying anything bad about D Howard. But Al is starting to perform consistently well against the best big men in the game. He has done this two games in a row against D Howard for example. I'm not saying I wouldn't trade Al J for Howard. I'm just saying I fully expect Al J to be one of the top 3 or 4 big men in the East in the next 2 years.
Regarding Livingston I follow the NBA and yes I can honestly dispute the whole Livingston vs Rondo thing.
First of all Livingston should be further along and he's not, despite being in the league longer than Rondo.
Second Rondo has been putting up numbers without passing to Elton Brand or even a Chris Kaman let alone Maggette or Mobley. If Livingston and Rondo switched places this would be obvious in about 2 seconds.
Third, PRE INJURY Livingston is sort of a strange situation. It's kinda like saying pre-draft night Len Bias. The injury actually happened and it counts so maybe we need to say when they are both healthy. I'd say comparing the best 20 games of both of their careers Rondo has the edge for some of the reasons I said. People expected this of Livingston a while ago and it didn't happen and when it started to he got hurt. Nobody expected this of Rondo. Nobody thought by the end of the season he'd beat out both Bassy and West at the pg position. But he did. He has exceeded expectations.
I agree PP is the "best" player we have. I just think Al J is currently more important. It's like saying when the Dallas Cowboys were winning Emmit Smith was better but Aikman was most important. Why? Cause he was a QB. A thousand yard RB is easy to find. So is a good swing man. A Pro Bowl QB is almost impossible. So is a good young big man with a good attitude.
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