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Post by eja117 on Feb 28, 2006 8:51:15 GMT -5
Stats schmats. Who plays harder? Who acts like he has something to lose and prove (notably Gomes really does have something to lose and prove cause he is a 2nd round pick without a guaranteed contract), who makes the players around him better? Who stays healthier?
The bottom line is when Gomes plays significant minutes I guarantee you something good happens, I practically guarantee it happens when Perk plays, and I can't guarantee it when Al J plays, but I can guarantee it when Delonte plays, and I can give half way decent odds on Scala. I guarantee nothing good will happen if Raef plays, unless he gets his once a month hot game when he hits like 9 3 pointers. I also guarantee nothing good will happen if Kandi plays.
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Post by eja117 on Feb 28, 2006 9:05:55 GMT -5
I've looked at the stats and they are revealing. Neither player is clearly better than the other. Both have pretty good stats but in different ways. Al J for example is far better on blocks. Gomes can hit 3 pointers. Gomes fouls less and takes care of the ball more. The stats are open for interpretation, which leaves only the fact that Gomes has won more games without Perk. It is also interesting to point out that the most games in a row Al J scored in double digits is 4. He did that once. Gomes is up to 6. Also the most games in a row that Al j got double figures in rebounds is two. He did that once. Gomes is up to three. Also the most games in a row Al J got a steal is 3. Gomes is up to 4. If it were me I'd play AL, Gomes, and Perk at the same time, play Pierce at the two and have Wally come off the bench the way Davis did. One way or another those 5 guys and Delonte are our top 6 and should get by far the most minutes
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Post by eja117 on Feb 28, 2006 16:47:12 GMT -5
from today's Boston Globe
"But all his recent success apparently does not guarantee Gomes a place in the starting lineup, or even big minutes, when Jefferson and Perkins come back. When asked if Gomes's play has made him think about keeping the rookie in a starting role, Rivers said, ''I don't know that. I don't get into that kind of stuff. We'll see how that works out when it comes. We need size. So, we'll see.""
What a stupid thing for Doc to say. Only he would say something like that. I hate coaches that play fovorites. Especially when those favorites aren't the best players
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Post by freshnthehouse on Feb 28, 2006 17:02:47 GMT -5
Stats schmats. Who plays harder? Who acts like he has something to lose and prove (notably Gomes really does have something to lose and prove cause he is a 2nd round pick without a guaranteed contract), who makes the players around him better? Who stays healthier? The bottom line is when Gomes plays significant minutes I guarantee you something good happens, I practically guarantee it happens when Perk plays, and I can't guarantee it when Al J plays, but I can guarantee it when Delonte plays, and I can give half way decent odds on Scala. I guarantee nothing good will happen if Raef plays, unless he gets his once a month hot game when he hits like 9 3 pointers. I also guarantee nothing good will happen if Kandi plays. Actually, I think we do have Gomes locked up for a while. I think Ainge used some of our MLE tp lock up Gomes to a 3 year deal equivalent to what a first rounder would get. smooth move DA. And I want to see our line-up to go to what it was pre-injuries, accept Gomes has to be bumped up to 20-25 min. per game.
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Post by eja117 on Mar 2, 2006 12:56:01 GMT -5
I admit Al J had better stats on a per minute basis last nite, but it's worth pointing out Gomes was being guarded by Shaq and Al was guarded by Zo, and there is a world of difference there
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2006 13:07:59 GMT -5
I admit Al J had better stats on a per minute basis last nite, but it's worth pointing out Gomes was being guarded by Shaq and Al was guarded by Zo, and there is a world of difference there Zo is one the best shotblocker in the league. In essence, Al was going up against a BETTER defender. Shaq isn't a very good defender. He just clogs up the paint which makes it harder for opposing players to get rebounds off him. So, likewise Gomes should be able to score on Shaq with his speed and outside game. But, he got 9 pts and 8 rebs in 35+ minutes of work. Al only had 12 mins and put up 7 pts 5 rebs on an INJURED ankle. BTW, I doubt SHAQ was defending Gomes with Lafrentz on the floor. It's more than likely Haslem or Walker defended Gomes for majority of the game.
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Post by eja117 on Mar 2, 2006 14:07:30 GMT -5
You're thinking pre kidney transplant Zo, Shaq gets plenty of blocks and rebounds and is significantly bigger. Also Al J came in with the 2nd unit and everythinghe did was against the 2nd unit and he was getting the ball passed to him a lot from 2nd unit guys.
Gomes was indeed defended by Shaq, because LaFrentz was playing out on the perimiter and because Gomes is a better inside scorer than Raef. Being with the first unit Gomes didn't always get the ball even though they did look for him. Even when he got the ball he was far more likely to pass it and hit an open man then Al J cause he moves the ball far more, instead of making the typical rookie mistake of lookingto score.
We need the Florida girl or someone neutral to chime in here and settle this
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2006 14:25:10 GMT -5
I agree. We need the florida girl to settle this!
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Post by FLCeltsFan on Mar 2, 2006 16:26:50 GMT -5
Nothing like putting me on the spot... Here is my take on the Gomes vs Jefferson debate. Right now I think that Gomes is the better player. He came into the league from 4 years in a good college program. He was NBA ready when he came in. Why he didn't play earlier in the season, I have no idea. Danny saw enough in him to sign him to a guaranteed 3 year contract (I think last year is team option) at more than the minimum, using part of the mle to do so. He is playing right now better than Jefferson. He is a better defender, a better passer, and has a better outside shot and makes very, very few mistakes. He is a smart player and has a knack for rebounding similar to Bird. He watches the shot and then positions himself where he figures the rebound will go. Bird played that way. He has answered his critics who said he was a tweener and wasn't big enough to play the 4 or quick enough to play the 3. He is smart enough and talented enough to play both quite well.
However, I think Al has a bigger upside. He has a ton of potential. He has instincts that you can't teach but his skill level is still raw. He came into the league last year with very little real basketball training. He never learned defense in high school. He played last year mostly on instinct, learning defense and the NBA game on the fly. He also has been given spotty minutes over the past two years. He has also been hampered with 3 sprained ankles over the past 2 years. Just when he gets ready to show what he can really do and we all start salivating over his talent, he goes down again. So, we haven't really gotten to see what he can do. He was just starting to get regular minutes and was showing some good things and went down again. Given time, I think Al will be the better player eventually. We need to give Al at least 1 more year at the pro level to put his experience near where Gomes is now. Coming right from high school is a world away from coming out of a 4 year college program. Either way, both are very, very talented players and I really like both of them. I am hoping that Gomes stays in the starting lineup when Al and Perk are both back all the way. He is the smarter player, better defender, and better player right now. But given the playing time, Al will eventually pass him to become a more dominant player.
Another thing to consider is that Al plays the 4 and 5 and has a more power game where as Gomes plays the 3 and 4 and has the more finesse game. They will complement each other very well. The future is bright for both of them and for the Celtics!!!
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Post by eja117 on Mar 2, 2006 16:41:51 GMT -5
Ok. Gomes is bette right now. I'll settle for that. If you like Al you'll have to wait. Wait wait wait. my favorite thing to do. Wake me up when Al surpasses Gomes, or when GG passes anyone. It took Perk 2 and a half years to get good, which is reasonable. And he showed signs his whole 2nd year and the whole beginning of this one.
And to the people say you have to be patient with high school kids I totally disagree. High school kids can be good right away. It happens all the time and it has happened at every position, except maybe center. Pf yes. Center no. Perk is the closest thing to a high school center that was good right away unless there's a foreign player who was 18 I'm not thinking of. When you add in the foreign players who were good at 18 you can see it happens frequently enough that waiting 4 years does not justify the wait even if they become the next Jermaine. I don't think any high school player that took 3 or more years to get good ever got good with the team that picked them in the long run. If they are gonna take 4 years to get good youy might as awell kiss em goodbye the day you draft em. If Al J follows the Perk method, if he doesn't get hurt he should be getting real good around this time next year.
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Post by FLCeltsFan on Mar 2, 2006 19:23:38 GMT -5
You make some good points, Eja - some HS players come into the NBA ready to play... Lebron came in with an NBA ready body and made an impact right away. Howard came in fairly NBA ready. Garnett did ok his first year but broke out his second year. For the most part, though, HS players need to put on some muscle and also need to learn defense on the NBA level and take at least a year or two to burst out. I honestly think Al would be much farther along if it weren't for the 3 ankle sprains. They are talking about using the Karl Malone tape job on him now that will hold his ankles much more securely and he is all for it.
Tracy McGrady didn't really take off until his third year in the NBA. It wasn't until JOneal's 5th year that he finally started to do something. So, it goes both ways. Some can come in and play right away and others take longer.
You are also very right that most of the HS players that take time to develop usually do so with a different team that drafts them. Most teams want to win now and don't have the patience to bring them along slowly. I think Green is going to be good. Al is going to be good. But we need patience while they work their way into NBA shape and learn the NBA game. Gomes is good now. But that is what 4 years in a good college program will do. It is possible that Gomes will continue to get better and end up just as good as Al or even better. it isn't an exact science. I mean look at Kandi.... Number 1 pick who has never done much. And there are lots more who showed a lot of promise and then flopped.
I think we have a lot of potential on this team and with a little patience - maybe even as soon as next year - we are going to challenge for the title. We just need to keep drinking that green koolaid!!!!
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Post by eja117 on Mar 3, 2006 9:35:45 GMT -5
I soured on potential and upside when three high schoolers were taken in front of Battier, and another right after. 3 of them are on different teams, and the one who isn't (Chandler) isn't better and probably never will be. Which is why I am all about holding the high school kids to the same standard. Are you an NBA player or not?
Other players who were good fast were JR Smith, Telfair, Al J, and Amare. Although those first two are kinda in the doghouse now and Al J gets hurt a lot. Which goes to prove my point about holding high schoolers to the same standard.
Also part of the reason Telfair was drafted high is because he held his own against Jameer nelson in workout, which is the way it should be when you draft a high schooler.
Also to me if a young guy like Marvin Williams wasn't going to br drafted high in his high school class, then don't draft him high as a college freshmen on potential, or all the high school players picked the year before like Al J will probably be better. When you pick #2 you want a guy who will be better than like everyone. Adam Morrison gives you that chance this year, but none of the freshemen do, and if the high school kids were available this year there is only one that could possibly be drafted ahead of him.
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Post by eja117 on Mar 4, 2006 10:52:04 GMT -5
Shaun Livingston was also good fairly quickly. He just kept getting hurt, like Al, which is another reason not to take high schoolers
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Post by VI_CelticsFan on Mar 4, 2006 17:23:43 GMT -5
What I want to know is when Al is fully developed, what happens to Gomes? I love Ryan and I think he is a helluva basketball player, but I'm not sure if I want to start him over Jefferson at the 4. So when Big Al is ready, will Gomes go to the bench? Will he start at the 3 with GG at the 2? Or can we possibly do Gomes at the 4 and Al at the 5? I'm so confused.
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Post by FLCeltsFan on Mar 4, 2006 18:06:58 GMT -5
What I want to know is when Al is fully developed, what happens to Gomes? I love Ryan and I think he is a helluva basketball player, but I'm not sure if I want to start him over Jefferson at the 4. So when Big Al is ready, will Gomes go to the bench? Will he start at the 3 with GG at the 2? Or can we possibly do Gomes at the 4 and Al at the 5? I'm so confused. Since Gomes plays both the 3 and 4 and Al plays the 4 and 5, I see Al starting alongside Perk. Gomes will be our 6th man and back up both the 3 and 4 positions and so get plenty of playing time. Al can play the 5 when Doc goes small ball. At least that is the way I see it.
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