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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jan 23, 2022 22:20:22 GMT -5
The roster that we have is not going to cut it. If Tatum can play the rest of the season like he did tonight against the Wiz, we'll make the playoffs. But we need so much more. We need a real PG (Schroeder is nice, but he's a score first Point, and Smart isn't enough), we need better shooters, we need more off-ball players.
Udoka and Brad need to really ask themselves if Tatum and Jaylen can coexist and fluorish. Some players just don't mesh and play their best together. This may be the case with the Jays. I hope it can work with these two, but one of them will have to swallow their pride and accept being #2.
Keep Rob Williams. He's finally establishing himself.
Keep Grant, Romeo and Pritchard. They're solidifying themselves as reliable bench pieces (and they're cheap). Maybe Nesmith.
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Post by jrmzt on Jan 23, 2022 22:38:18 GMT -5
I think you're right. Neither believes they are the [HASH]1 or [HASH]2.
The world seems to think Tatum is [HASH]1 and maybe they're right. But I reckon that neither of them have shown enough to deserve the [HASH]1 alpha spot.
Neither of them have shown the willingness to demand the best out of their teammates each and every play. To be vocal and assertive. To take over and make the right plays. To actually challenge the coach and speak up.
Pity we can't combine Smart's fiery nature with one of them. If only Smart didn't have such a huge talent and skill gap between himself and the Jays.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 23, 2022 22:38:37 GMT -5
Hey Dmatts. Long time no see. I'd like to know who these players are that can play their positions better than guys like Smart and Brown though before we trade them. This team is 6-4 in their last 10. 17-13 in the conference. 15-10 at home. We are 9-14 on the road which leads me to believe it's inexperience. I agree talent wise moves need to be made. BUt it depends on who we are getting back. Or what. We have no draft picks as it stands other than our own and the memphis pick I think. Developing young players takes time and sometimes it doesn't. This draft coming up is pretty strong but I think we are waivering purposely. New coach etc, etc. We haven't been healthy for any stretch yet.
There's a lot of talent in the league right now but I'd like to know who these players are that are going to play more hard nosed than Smart and Brown and fit what we need that's the thing. Smart makes a difference when he is in there and so does Brown.
Don't they fit the profile of what we want anyways? I don't get it in that regard. I agree we could use another pg etc. We don't utilize Horford and Schroder like we should. We haven't been able to utilize Smart and Brown like we should either really to this point.
Unless we want to go to go the patty mills route and get a better pg. We have to have some plan there. We have Jrich too. Grant. Pritchard. Romeo like you said who are supposed to be those guys.
I get Smart is somewhat overrated and a minutes eater and so is Brown but there has to be players that make sense vs shaking it up for the sake of shaking it up.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 23, 2022 22:54:59 GMT -5
Smart's biggest draw back is he plays 30 mpg and eats a lot of minutes. He's still not a great shooter and his leadership is overrated. He's not KG. He's still good and a good pg to have to slow things down and know when to attack. He's a smart player for the most part. Horford and Shroder are like that too at this point in their careers. They are good but not that good. Brown is a better player than he shows sometimes because he's playing 2nd fiddle to Tatum but that's what he should be. He's a 3rd wheel or a 1 and he's not that good. But he's a good tandem player with Tatum. Not great yet.
BRown and Tatum are basically what they should be 1st and 2nd options on what amounts to a not great team yet that can play better. Are they Pierce and Antoine? Sure. But it's the same thing. If Pierce and ANtoine had Tim Duncan great or a better piece. Or they can break it up. I think it can go either way.
I don't think this team needs Tim Duncan. We either need a better surrounding team all around. Or a better piece and fix the bench. IE if Tatum and Brown had 2 other guys to play with so teams couldn't focus on them as much.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 23, 2022 23:01:44 GMT -5
JOrdan and Pippen had Rodman and Kukoc and were surrounded by hustle guys and shooters. They had like 2 dynamic duos. Or we can just rebuild and add talent. But Pritchard is supposed to be able to shoot. So is Jrich. Nesmith. These guys are supposed to be that. We drafted them with that in mind. Nesmith was the best shooter you could draft that draft supposedly.
We are still sort of the baby bulls here. Jordan and Pippen waffled for years as young players. Tatum is doing his JOrdan every so often. Are they as good as those guys? I don't know. I don't think so but it's not that far off. Players need to develop.
I think Brown is underrated. He's a 2 and a good one. I agree though it's that close where what is this team really?
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 23, 2022 23:18:47 GMT -5
I'm pretty patient with this team. They don't need to be Jordan and Pippen. They can be Browna nd Tatum and their own thing. They need a couple guys who can take the load off them and have to improve i agree. I really don't think the Celtics want to trade them. I think they want to build around them and that's that but we will see. I can't really argue too much because I'm a simple man. They should be able to build around them.
If this team somehow gets Simmons or Sabonis i would be thrilled. We need a glue guy in the middle like Kukoc was to Pippen and Jordan. Let the young players keep developing. Jordan and Pippen had bj armstrong and kerr and hodges and those guys.
It could go either way but this was a show me game for Tatum to BRadley beal and the league like hey i can play this game.
Players can literally force their way to teams where they say where they want to go. Detroit can offer up whatever and some of the players will not go there. Will sabonis and simmons end up swapping places because Simmons doesn't have that clout? Maybe. Philly has the upper hand as it stands where we might have to go the other direction.
This team needs to improve in other ways as it stands anyways. I thinK JOrdan and Pippen were better where they could do it on their own but Jordan did not win until he was 28 years old. Tatum and BRown are still 23 and 25 respectively. They have had 5 years in the league but different. I am also not sayign Tatum is Michael Jordan. I more see him like George Gervin. But it doesn't matter. ANy team can win with the right mix of whatever.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 24, 2022 0:15:47 GMT -5
JT for 3. Brown knocks it down. I'm going to miss that if they break up this duo.
They are finally being given that chance to be that and people want to break them up already. I agree it's been a few more years than that. But the pieces haven't been right. I'm starting to finally appreciate them too. They seem to be starting to turn the corner a bit. It could be a sign they might be traded and I'm starting to appreciate them, but I really think if you look at their record this year it shows their inexperience as a duo and of their two stars. They are the only team in the playoffs right now and broke that hurdle tonight with a losing road record.
This entire season has been like that to me. They have the talent. They are just inexperienced. They lose games they should win and that can turn around. Tatum and Brown are still 23 and 25 years old and this is really the first year they are really being given that shot to lead this team. Common sense is sometimes overlooked and knowing my luck we will trade them. But I honestly hope not. I can totally see where we would decide to build around Tatum etc. But this is not ANtoine and PIerce. There is no reason why the Celtics can't build around both this time.
My luck is also much better than that usually. I'm like 90 percent right and 10 percent wrong where as the media is 10 percent right and 90 percent wrong. BUt I have been wrong before on key players. I liked Smarts comments before the game too and hated them at the same time like it's us against the world. I'm with them. People also buy the hype sometimes and management. But i really hope they stick to their guns.
I couldn't make that up either. And it's not my ego. Because I'm not an egotist. Read any rumor all year and what percent actually happens. It's like 90 percent wrong. I could be wrong here but at least i realize that. The media in general attracts a lot of egotists and I'm like their kryptonite. There are issues with Tatum and Brown making their teammates better. I agree with that. JOrdan and Pippen once they had their chance really took off and this team is kind of waffling. It still took them 3 or 4 years together to win a title. I still don't necessarily agree it needs to broken up though.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 24, 2022 1:30:05 GMT -5
There needs to be some semblence of what we are breaking them up for other than we are somehow going to add these mystical things that we have already been drafting and targetting as it is and are somehow going to be able to replace Smart and Brown. Trading them for picks is one thing if those players don't exist int he league and other vets that might fit better but again those players have to develop and be there. We can try to swing a deal with OKC or something. If they want to give us Giddey and a boat load of picks. Salaries need to match up etc etc. It would have to involve a 3rd team more than like where we get back veterans we actually can play. Horford and Schroders deals are expiring. That's the team I would be on the phone with. Orlando has players. Teams like Detroit are probably not going to deal with us.
We can try to unload everyone and go after Beal this offseason to replace Brown. Deal Brown and Smart for a young pg like Giddey and picks or young players. But we would need expiring deals back. And again that doesn't necessarily make us better as it stands. It would be a shake up and a good one.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Jan 24, 2022 1:43:16 GMT -5
Welcome back DM. Here's a thing a wrote up on CB a few days ago:
QuoteModify I've pretty much given up on this team doing anything this year, but I'm also not ready to pull the plug on building a team around the J's. So I'd like to see the Celtics clear out the roster so they can make a run at Bradley Beal next year. Here's my ideas on how to do iiiiiit.
HYPOTHETICAL TRADE [HASH]1
Boston gives: J-Rich, Romeo Langford
Cleveland gives: Ricky Rubio, 2023 1st round pick (medium protection)
Cleveland gets a guy that can help them in the playoffs this year, and maybe they can make something out of Romeo. Boston clears money and gets a future pick
HYPOTHETICAL TRADE [HASH]2
Boston Gives: Marcus Smart, Aaron Nesmith
Sacto Gives: Tristan Thompson, Davion Mitchell
Sacto gets a gritty vet with playoff experience, as well as a potential wing gunner in Nesmith. Boston gets out of Smart's deal, and gets a future a PG in Mitchell.
HYPOTHETICAL TRADE [HASH]3
Boston gets: Serge Ebaka, Goran Dragic, 2023 LAC 1st (heavily protected) 2024 Raptors 2nd rounder
Toronto gets: Eric Bledsoe
LAC gets: Al Horford, Dennis Schroeder
Boston gets out of Al's deal, and picks up an admittedly weak 1st rounder. Toronto moves an injured Goran for Bledsoe, and just gives up a 2nd rounder. LAC gets a talent boost to make a push for chip this year.
So the C's would go into next year with:
Jaylen Jayson RWIII G-Will Peyton Mitchell their own 1st round pick
and if my public school math is on point, i think the C's would have nearly 40mill in salary cap room. Enough room to get a max level guy, plus someone else in the 6-7 mill range.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 24, 2022 1:48:23 GMT -5
De'aaron fox does not move the needle for me. Dejounte Murray does but he's playing like a top 10 player this year. If Popovich wants to trade us Murray for Smart and Brown sure. But again we have to clear cap somehow so we can sign Beal. These trades are not usualyl realistic. I think OKC or San Antonio are the two teams we could deal with potentially but I haven't looked at all the bottom feeders.
OKC has a ton of picks and Josh Giddey. Getting Smart and Brown to go with Shae might make some sense to them if they aren't giving up all their picks. Those trades are hard to make regardless.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 24, 2022 1:54:05 GMT -5
Those trades make some sense fresh if we are trying to unload Horford and Schroder for a pick. But their contracts are expiring. They should have more value. I don't see teams necessarily just giving us a pick either. Unless they need cap room right away and we are having to take back longer contracts which isn't necessarily good. Otherwise i hate them. They don't make sense.
The whole idea of just blowing it up is far fetched for that reason. Because teams are not going to just hand us picks for Horford and Shroder unless they need cap right away which means we take back longer contracts.
We also shouldn't trade Brown and Smart for hopes we might draft someone better in a year or two or three. There are going to be some very good players coming out where year 3 we might land Michael Jordan or someone really good. Those picks have to be very good though. We have to be getting back something good.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Jan 24, 2022 1:57:07 GMT -5
Horford's deal is partially guaranteed for 14 million next year. So in order to get cap room to get a max-level player we'd need to find a way to get rid of him.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 24, 2022 2:00:32 GMT -5
I got ya. But why are teams giving us picks for that?
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 24, 2022 2:09:00 GMT -5
We get a weak 1st round back and get cap space. I'm assuming Serge and Dragics contracts are expiring. SO that would make sense if we want to unload Horford. Trading Smart and Brown we would need to be getting back something good. We ultimately have to replace these guys in some way is the point with better players. And a better mix. Those deals do not accomplish that. We could add Beal with cap space yes. That's one. But we still need need other things of value that are not going to be found in free agency we wouldn't have any more cap scape once we signed Beal and would be back to where we are now.
IF we trade Smart and Brown in other words we would want young talented players or picks plus expiring deals. Yeah Horford and Schroder are just a salary dump. So then we can go sign Beal or soemthing. But again we probably aren't going to get much for that. We may have to give picks to do that.
BEal would have to be guaranteed to come here too because he's Tatums friend. There would need to be a secret handshake there. Vs hoping again like we did with Durant all those years and ending up Al Horford and Kemba........ We would have to be a lot smarter in free agency and those players just don't come here. Jrue went to the Bucks. It's not always the same but we would need some guarantee. Having money to throw around is one thing but using it wisely and getting players to come here is another.
We can't just dump our team for cap space and hope.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 24, 2022 2:25:41 GMT -5
We had room to sign two max players before because Tatum and Brown were on rookie deals. That is no longer the case. Tatum is signed and isn't going to be traded. If we trade off Horford, Shroder, Brown and Smart we would have room to sign 1 max player. We would need to be getting back young players and picks for brown and smart adn expiring deals or veterans. Horford and Shroder we would most likely have to give up picks for a salary dump so then we could then sign Beal. Something along those lines give or take.
Otherwise it's not a shake up it's a total rebuild and still is close to that anyways. It's a rebuild on the fly. It needs to be done correctly is the point and there needs to be some plan of what we are targetting. If we want to take back longer contracts for horford then we might get picks. There is probably some round about way regardless.
In other words trading Brown, Smart, Horford, Shroder would have to equal a salary dump so we can sign Beal plus get something else of high value. Otherwise there is no reason to do it and we are where we are anyways. Looking for that other something.
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