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Post by DERRENMATTS on Dec 18, 2005 2:37:05 GMT -5
Take a good look at our team and you'll see that we don't have enough defensive players to be a really good defensive team.
The only ones we can consider to have above average defensive abilities, or the potential to become strong defensive players are:
Perkins Banks Greene Reed Allen
Of these 5 guys, only Perkins is getting playing time and we should expect to see Marcus becoming a regular in the rotation. But as you can see, all of these guys are young and not nearly experienced enough to play against savvy veterans.
Pierce and Ricky are not good defensive players. When Pierce plays physical, he can be somewhat effective, but for the most part, he's average (and no one can say that he plays defense with passion and intensity). Ricky is more of a gambler and when he gambles right, he may look like a good defensive player. But he's often burned by his man, and what's more discouraging is that players like Kyle Korver can beat Ricky just by using a screen.
I don't have to say anything about Blount that I haven't already complained about before.
Raef is solid, but on a grading scale, he gets a C.
We won't win with a bunch of C level defensive players, especially when its the C level defensive players are the ones getting the most playing time. Ainge needs to realize this and make a move to get us more defensive players. I'm getting really tired of seeing how weak our defense is.
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Post by BCHISTORIAN on Dec 18, 2005 4:41:12 GMT -5
we miss tony a lot
and reed is overrated (sorry c17)
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Post by eja117 on Dec 18, 2005 10:45:23 GMT -5
I'd be happy to trade Reed and Gomes at this point for 2nd round picks. I just want the picks used to trade up.
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Post by BCHISTORIAN on Dec 18, 2005 11:18:19 GMT -5
reed yes gomes no
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Post by Roadrunner on Dec 18, 2005 11:41:05 GMT -5
I guess when 4 out of 5 players on the court at any given time are "average" defenders, the team is not going to be an above average defense team.
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Post by eja117 on Dec 18, 2005 11:55:36 GMT -5
I could give Gomes another year, but the way I see it if you can't beat out backups to be a significant backup or a starter and do it relatively quickly then forget you. I don't see a guy going from last on the bench to being a major championship contributer, I just don't see it. Which brings me to Green. On any other team I'd be thinking he's a complete bust and a product of the high school hype, but since this is Doc Rivers we're talking about he's probably pretty good.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Dec 18, 2005 12:48:08 GMT -5
Eja, do you think Blount is better than Perkins? I mean, if you're determining a player's worth by the playing time he receives, then Blount is much better than Perkins, right?
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Post by esco33 on Dec 18, 2005 17:27:55 GMT -5
Your forgetting Al Jefferson. Right now his D is bad, but he has the natural instincts that you cannot teach. He has started "getting it" a little over the past few weeks. He can rebound and block shots and is athletic enough to alter many shots. He has the potential to be a B defender if you are rating them.
Also, I believe Ricky can be a B defender, but he just plays too many minutes. In the beginning of the season, it seemed as if he just played better man to man D. We rely on him so much for his scoring, and I think he is just fatigued.
Overall, the team defense is NON EXISTENT. There are other teams in the league where players may not be the most athletic, or great man to man defenders but collectively as a unit they play good team defense.
With Obie, we didn't have the best man to man defenders, but D1ck Harter's defensive schemes were good defensive schemes where we could play tenacious D, and get stops when we needed too.
This defense helped us get to the Conference Finals. It was Obie's loose cannon, itchy trigger offensive philosophy that helped us get eliminated from the Conference Finals.
We do not have this (defense) now, and we need to find it. Doc is a likeable guy, but I am starting to think that the reason we are not playing good D on the court is because of the man pacing the sidelines on the side of the court.
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Post by eja117 on Dec 18, 2005 17:34:00 GMT -5
That's a bad example because on any other team in the league Perk would be starting ahead of Blount and getting more minutes. In fact on any other team in the league this would have been happening last year. I think Al j and Perk have effectively beat out Raef and Blount. I think in theor careers they are more likely to lead a team to a championship than Raef and Blount, and I think they showed that early in their careers and I wouldn't say either guy gets beat down on a nightly basis, but in time if Perk doesn't stop fouling or another coach or two comes in and they don't give these guys any minutes either, then it would pretty much show that they aren't starting material in the league and won't win any championships. In terms of playing like an all star their first week in the league that's pretty much what the guys who have led teams to championships have done. With the exception of KG and Kobe who took till their second year (and Kobe is looking more and more like the result of Shaq every day.) and if you want to include Jermaine O'Neal and Tracy Mc in that category (I guess I would include Jermaine, but not Tracy because of my theory that the only SG who ever lead a team to a championship was MJ) they took 4 loooooong years.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Dec 18, 2005 22:22:23 GMT -5
I also think Jefferson has potential to be a solid defensive player. His one on one defense in the post is really raw and pump fakes are killing him, but his help defense has come along. He goes right after the ball when blocking shots.
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Post by greenblood on Dec 18, 2005 23:50:14 GMT -5
I disagree that bench players don't eventually turn into good players. Michael Redd hardly played at all his first couple of years in the league, and neither did Ben Wallace. Actually, Wallace was originally with the Celtics. Jermaine O'Neal is a guy who took about 4 years to come into his own. It wasn't until he was traded to the Pacers, did his career take off. I do think that Gomes is going to be a good player. He is a good rebounder, and has decent offensive moves inside. He will make a solid small forward. The problem right now is, Doc hasn't decided between him and Reed. Also, he plays behind Pierce and Ricky on the depth chart.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Dec 20, 2005 2:01:38 GMT -5
Thanks for stepping in there, GreenBlood. I'm having a hard time convincing Eja that players do develop with time and get better than their current level ;D
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Post by eja117 on Dec 20, 2005 8:29:38 GMT -5
Ok I admit players do develop. Steve Nash is another. But you have to look at where they come from and where you want them to go. Taking a guy who does nothing (like Perk) in his rookie year, and expecting him to be a future all star is a pretty big leap. Taking guys that do something their rookie years (like Al J, Nash, and M Redd who might be the best 2nd rnder ever) and making those guys into something good is a lot easer and more realistic. Following that logic there is only so much we can expect from Justin Reed and Gomes.
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Post by mev17 on Dec 21, 2005 4:12:23 GMT -5
But Jermaine O'Neal did nothing his rookie year, and now he is a perenial all star. Billups didn't do much his first year either. Nor did Ben Wallace. Especially when dealing with kids straight out of high school, it takes more than one or two years to judge them. Perkins showed great flashes last year, and has had good performances this year. He has enough of a ceiling that he can become a solid, even all-star center. Especially given the lack of "true centers" in the league.
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Post by eja117 on Dec 21, 2005 8:48:10 GMT -5
I don't think Jermaine O'Neal or Tracy McGrady justify waiting 4 or 5 years cause they might end up as good as them. Perk already has the physical tools Jermaine didn't have his first 4 years, so it makes sense to judge him and Al J sooner. Also even if Green does become the next Tracy McGrady so what? All he did is hurt 2 franchises before becoming a baged up Rocket.
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