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Post by oldtimeball on Sept 17, 2016 1:53:21 GMT -5
There was a report that came across my Facebook feed with the headline who are the top 5 passers in Celtics history. No 5 Nate Archibald. 4. Dennis Johnson 3.Larry legend 2. Bob cousy 1. Rajon rondo
Sorry for the rant but this type of journalism bothers me. Its using stats to make them say what you want. Its about trying to generate interest in people following your website. Nothing about truth.
My list wouldn't have rondo in first or in the first five. How is he better than cousy or bird? DJ was probably the greatest all around point guard the celts had in my opinion.. His defense, clutch shooting etc is what I hope our young guards develop into.. If only we had kept Chauncey... Yeah I am a old man who hates when legends are set aside for fads.. What type of stats would cousy have in today's game
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Post by jmost on Sept 17, 2016 8:47:46 GMT -5
Rondo is in my top 3. I posted years ago that I thought he was up there with Cousy and Bird. Remember, this is about passing, not who is the better player. Rondo had, like Cousy and Bird, uncanny court vision, and also the ability to complete passes that most point guards can't even see are there. And he could pass with either hand, another unusual skill. Rondo had his weaknesses, but he was an elite passer.
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Post by FLCeltsFan on Sept 17, 2016 9:52:20 GMT -5
Most people writing on the blogs today never got to see Cousy or even have read much about how great he was. Many never even saw DJ play, so they lean toward the PG's they have seen play and stats for the others. The article was just about passing and although I wouldn't rank Rondo very high if we were talking about the best overall PG's, you have to admit that he is an excellent passer. As jmost said he had an uncanny court vision and could make mind blowing passes. I would still put Cousy above Rondo on the passing list. Cousy was plain out magic.
I have to agree that DJ is up there at the top if we are talking about overall skills. His defense, tenacity and ability to raise his game to even higher levels in the clutch are what sets him apart. Although Pistol Pete Maravich was only a Celtic for half a season, he was one of the best ever. He was simply amazing to watch.
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Post by joshrblabber on Sept 17, 2016 11:40:56 GMT -5
There is no point in assigning numbers to these great players, it's meaningless, but it is interesting to look at the passing skill of great teams and how it can provided in different ways. Let's say that a great team needs at least 10 PSPs (Passing Skill Points). These can be spread across the team, or they can reside mostly in a couple of players. Some of our PGs have had elite passing skills (Cousey, Tiny, Rondo) and others have had merely very good passing skills but were elite in other areas (KC, DJ, Jojo). This is also true of non-PGs. In building a great team we have to look at the PSPs of all the the players, and combine them so that there are at least 10 PSPs on the floor at all times.
If we want to assign numbers to passing it should be on the team level. What are the best passing teams in Celtics history? Cousey/Russell? Bird/Tiny? Bird/Walton? Jojo/Cowans? Rondo/KG?
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Post by jmost on Sept 17, 2016 12:54:44 GMT -5
Off the top of my head I'd say the '86 Celtics were the best as a team. They could all pass except for "Black Hole" McHale.
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Post by FLCeltsFan on Sept 17, 2016 13:31:34 GMT -5
Off the top of my head I'd say the '86 Celtics were the best as a team. They could all pass except for "Black Hole" McHale. I've watched the Celtics since the 60's and I have to agree that the 86 Celtics were the best passing team possibly of all time. It was so much fun watching that team play. McHale may have been tabbed as a black hole but he also passed the ball quite well when he needed to. It's just that most times when the ball was dumped inside to him, he has the best chance of scoring of anyone on the team. McHale in the paint was pretty much a sure 2 points. He had such great moves to shake his defender. The articles in question are just being posted to Celtics.com to fill in the rest of the offseason and to create some conversation. They posted one on the 5 best passers, the 3 best rebounders and the 5 best scorers. Making lists like this is always up for discussion since stats don't tell the whole story as has been pointed out and you can't really judge from one era to another since the game has changed so much since the early days. |
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Post by oldtimeball on Sept 17, 2016 17:00:07 GMT -5
Yes Rondo had high assist numbers. Yes he had court vision. Where I feel he falls short is truly facilitating or creating for another.. A lot of his assists were to open jump shooters and I think we all have heard of his tantrums and antics over his stats..
I agree we don't appreciate or respect the legends like DJ.
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Post by joshrblabber on Sept 17, 2016 19:25:36 GMT -5
The 86 team was amazing - Walton put them over the top, he was a supreme passer - but the early 60s teams were right there with them. Russell was as good a passer as he was a rebounder, the ball never stopped on that team.
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Post by jmost on Sept 17, 2016 19:41:45 GMT -5
I haven't seen the article about the three best rebounders, but I'd be a little shocked if it wasn't Russell, Cowens and Bird.
I'd guess Havlicek, Sam Jones, Pierce, Bird and McHale for scorers.
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Post by jmost on Sept 17, 2016 20:01:45 GMT -5
Wow, they have Antoine Walker in the top 5 scorers! Having seen every Celtic since the early 60's I never would have even considered him for this list. So, a few thoughts.
1) Antoine Walker is the poster child for how stats can lie. Using PPG as a measuring stick, without considering how many shots he took to score those points, is absurd. I hated his game, and was thrilled when he was traded. On a good team, like the 60's, 70's or 80's Celtics, he wouldn't have even started, if he played at all. Too many articles are being written by people who never saw these guys play.
2) Sam Jones never gets the credit he deserves. Russell tells a story in his excellent memoir Second Wind about the time Sam scored 52 points and Russell asked him "why don't you do that all the time?" and Sam replied "because then they'd expect it". Sam Jones scored as many points as he had to while winning 10 titles in 12 years. His career average is skewed downward by the fact that he had all star Bill Sharman in front of him when he came into the league. Great, great shooter and gotta love that bank shot!
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Post by joshrblabber on Sept 18, 2016 2:13:43 GMT -5
No team has ever played at a higher level than the Cousey/Russell teams. They had the greatest innovators in history at both ends of the court and all-stars at every position. They invented the modern offense AND the modern defense, and played them both better than anyone. They were the greatest team ever assembled in any sport. It is such a shame that there is so little video...
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Post by oldtimeball on Sept 18, 2016 4:25:42 GMT -5
Yes and I lived in the country with one TV station and didn't get to see them play that much.
Antone walker may be my top 1 hated Celtic player. Right on the money, if you have to take 30 shots to score 20 points and can't rebound you're useless in my mind. That's why stats are for ESPN and fantasy video game players..
Is there sabermetrics for basketball
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Sept 23, 2016 19:24:24 GMT -5
What, no Phil Pressey? This list is junk!
Yeah, Antoine Walker is my least favorite Celtic who ever was an All-Star. Bringing him back for his second go around brought me disappointment.
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Post by oldtimeball on Sept 24, 2016 0:50:16 GMT -5
Phil pressey?
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Post by freshnthehouse on Sept 26, 2016 15:46:50 GMT -5
What, no Phil Pressey? This list is junk! Yeah, Antoine Walker is my least favorite Celtic who ever was an All-Star. Bringing him back for his second go around brought me disappointment. Yup, my least favorite trade from the Ainge era. Gave up a 1st rounder (granted, it was late in the round) for a 1/2 season rental of Antoine Walker on a team that didn't have a prayer at making a deep playoff run. I think it was done to get the team in the playoffs and build a little excitement. Not worth it IMO. |
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