Royals baseball

[cfoo]

what do you think about the trade my royals just made? Wil Myers and 2 of their best pitching prospects for Shields and Davis. Did the royals just make their kevin garnett deal? I've seen it before with the royals and these players end up being average crap. Is this different? They gave up a lot for 2 players that aren't exactly known as kevin garnett or roy halladay. But Shields is pretty underrated? If he throws 90 and wins i'm all for it? Never been a flash before substance guy but I don't know. Did the royals just trade the best prospect in baseball? Pitching is hard to come by? They are developing Bubba starling who is also a right fielder like myers.. They could also sign someone to play right field. Veterans win in baseball too?

With the yankees and sox going down the tubes could get interesting. Te scary part is the rays have always been good at bringing in prospects and still have price and moore and got 2 really good pitching prospects to go with them and hellickson as well. Teams like the A's, Orioles, San Fran, and Tampa are scary. Toronto also made similar moves like the royals did.

Suddenly the royals ahve a veteran pitching staff though with Shields, Santana, DAvis, and Guthrie though. Billy Butler, Alex Gordon, Hosmer, Moustakis, Salvador Perez. I'd say we are at least relevant but still some work to do.

Or we just traded our farm system for average crap that will be gone in 2 years and the cupboard is bare. I've seen it before. 25 years of rebuilding all for this.

[jrmzt]

1. If this was any other club, then i would say that it may have been a fair trade. But this is the Rays...one of the smartest organizations in all of baseball. Their farm system is one of the best, they have some of the best scouts and knowing the Rays, they probably did a ton of research so I highly doubt this was a fair deal. The Rays probably got the upperhand simply because they had a surplus in pitching...heck its Shields not David Price..if it was Price this would be a whole different story. But Shields is mm...i've seen alot of Shields as I watch my Red Sox take on the Rays quite alot. Hes definitely starter material...but definitely not ace material and certainly not your no.1 or no.2 guy. Hes a very solid no.3.

2. I believe I read somewhere on Grantland that the chances of Myers being a star is very high because they did a research on prospects voted no.1 and a large percentage of them turned out into stars.

www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8732913/assessing-myers-shields-trade-royals-side-aint-pretty

Thats the article.

[cfoo]

I agree on myers. I wrote a big long article elsewhere myself. lol. Myers is the real deal and the best player they had. The question to me is could they have afforded to keep all these prospects. Me personally i would have rathered they kept myers and traded someone else with prospects for pitching but maybe the market wasn't out there. The royals are also a small market and it may have been a financial move as much as a team one. I've watched the royals for years trade away players for crap. This one feels somewhat different. But they did it with Greinke and now Myers. Getting team pieces to go with their young more affordable nucleus. Gordon, Butler, Moustakis, Hosmer, PErez are farther along and more affordable.

Still though if the royals traded george brett before he got a chance to play I'd be upset and htink it was horrible. Myers is in that mold of strasburg and harper and players like that.

They got some pitching and some veteran arms though which is what they needed. Pitching takes a bit to come along and none of their young arms were looking like they were going to stabalize the rotation any time soon.

I agree though the rays are ridiculous and they need to compete with that. Montgomery and Ordorizi were the best pitching prospects the royals had as well. They gave up a ton for 2 players that are good players. Shields is a very good pitcher but he's not Roy Halladay.

This may have been a move where the royals said this gives us the best chance to win and the best chance to keep our nucleus. Myers is gold for the next 6 years though before he wants to get paid.

It's a huge gamble and not a gamble I like though. It feels like they shortchanged themselves. This is different than getting KG in that way. Different town and more small market. Shields is a really good pitcher but he's more an under the radar good pitcher. Myers is a prime prospect. He's the most valuable player in the organization. HE won minor league player of the year. Gordon won it a few years back but Myers is much higher regarded. The Royals have noone else in their organization like htat. Greinke was the other guy.

[cfoo]

The good news to me is had they kept myers they might have kept that losing mentality. Why try to win if we are going to lose this guy anyways? At least now they are trying to win. It stops that trading mentality where they royals would have been trying to trade Myers anyways a few years from now before they lost him.

IT's almost better to just trade him now 4 years from now they'd be trading him for prospects.

It's different the celtics getting garnett in that regard. It's more like htey are trading a prime prospect for 2 lesser parts to go with all their other parts vs banking on 3 or 4 prime players.. More a small market move but it could work. It makes sense to me.

I like following different teams from different places though. As I've gotten older I've noticed how my cowboys do things, vs how the celtics do things and the royals. Very different.

I just hope the Royals just didn't blow it here. It wouldn't surprise me if they did. BUt so many years of building nad prospects only to blow it. That would be the end.

I really believe Moore purposely traded Greinke and Myers(the royals 2 best players) for Shields, Davis, Escobar and Cain. I've seen these trades before. Awful. I feel differently about this one though.The players themselves are actually veteran good players that fill team needs. The timing is also different. The royals in their good old days were built with players like this. Solid players that most likely wouldn't have come here otherwise to go with their other solid players. Vs 2 stars they never would have been able to afford long term. The royals have a team of solid players which isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you look at teams in the al these days the yankees and red sox are dead. It makes the Royals relevant. Does it hurt their long term prospects? That's the issue.... CAn they compete with teams like Anaheim and Texas or the Rays? I dont know. Can they compete with the A's, Baltimore and teams like Toronto, or Boston or the Yankees and sneak into the playoffs? Or more importantly teams in their own division like the tigers? I would think so. They are in that mix now. I think the Royals now become like the white sox and are a major thorn in Detroit's side most years to win their division.

Two sides of the fence on this one. Not sure how it will work out We will see. Should be fun. This is it pretty much. It's this or 25 more years of crap.

[freshnthehouse]

It's crazy that KC threw inMontgomery and Ordorizi as well as Myers. That is ridiculous. If things go the right way KC was on to a once every 20 years collection of young talent.

But for KC, I can't say I blame them. They have been irrelevent for 25 years. There fan base needs to root for a winner, and this gives them a solid chance to be good. But this trade still doesnt make them a contender, and they gave a huge chunk of their future for only two guaranteed years of Shields.

[cfoo]

That's the thing fresh. I Watched my cowboys assemble a ridiculou amount of talent and just let it loose on the nfl in the early 90's. That's texas for you. But ego's and everything in between blew it up. Thing is i was a mavs fan somewhat as well when they had kidd and mashburn and jimmy jackson and it just didnt work out the same. I respect Dayton Moore as a manager. He's from the oldschool and was from SChuerholz school of thought who built the Royals back in the day and then went on to build Atlanta. I trust his judgement somewhat. Its' different than when the Royals had Allaird Baird from the red sox during the 90's who lead their decline and really didn't understand small market baseball. IT really comes down to management to me. It always starts from the top b ut is a team thing. The celtics were no different during the 90's when they went in the tank. The cowboys and Jones drove that team into the ground as well. I've seen it all at this point. I think KC is a great baseball town with great fans who've stuck by that team. They do deserve it. I'd like to think they are being smart here. Sometimes these really controversal moves are pretty good underneath. Yahoo, Espn are pannign the trade horribly. That gives me hope lol. The issue is i sort of agree with them here. There is some good thoughts about the trade though.

Thing is i'm not stupid and just go along with whatever. I hated what the royals were doing during the 90's. I felt the decline. I watched them trade saberhagen, then johnny damon and beltran and jermaine dye. I watched Bo Jackson's hip turn into oblivion. I hated all of it and it made me sad and who i am today lol. I've had respect for Danny Ainge and it's lead to good things. I respect Dayton Moore as well. Jerry Jones drives me nuts but i still think he is a guy who will bring in talent. He just needs those football guys to have the correct philosophy like Jimmy Johnson was that missing piece.

I'm going to try to trust in Dayton Moore here. It's a really big trade though and a huge gamble. I hope we didn't jus trade Babe Ruth. I think with free agency and everything in between these days it's a different ballgame. You really have to pick your spots and play to your market and reality.

[freshnthehouse]

I've always dug Kaufman field. I am heading down that direction this spring, and i'd love to catch a game there, hopefully twins vs. royals

[cfoo]

It should be interesting. I agree with JR that these players the royals traded are now probably going to be good. I was listening to an interview with Wade Davis and he was asked why tampa is so good at bringing in prospects and it seems like they bring up a guy like davis every year. He said it's ebcause they put the breaks on and can be patient. That's what happens when you have a winning mentality at the major league level.

I think the royals can't worry about what they gave up though. It's more what they got. Now they have players where they can bring guys in and there is less pressure. I think every player wants to be a winner and play for a winner and be a hero and all that. It's a different motivation.

I had very little hope the royals would bring in these young arms and young players and they would all develop at the same time and carry this team. That's what happens when you are relying on young players all the time. There are b umps along the road. Too much pressure on these guys to carry us.

The royals drafted all these pitchers but they always suck when they come up. They rely on these guys to be the ace of the staff off the bat and it's no good.

I think it's a good trade for both teams in that regard. On paper shields is basically what hte royals were hoping montgomery would be. He's a vet and a great teammate by everything i've read. Ordorizzi is basically a davis clone except davis already is that. They gave up Myers and their best prospect but now they can start winnign a bit and bringing players in and be more patient. Winning breeds winning. The celtics are a good example of that. They are doing that with guys like Bradley and Green and Sully right now vs just throwing them into the fire.

[jrmzt]

Question is...could patience be better? One could argue that leaving Myers in triple A or bringing him up to the big leagues and letting him show his stuff could further increase his value. Heck if he is as good as advertised and plays like Trout did, he could easily have commanded Cy Young winner David Price in a trade instead of Shields. Hell the Mariners who are starved for offense may have traded King Felix for a superstar young talent. Felix for Myers and those 2 prospects could be a good trade.

I mean its all IFs and BUTs ...I just feel like the Royals got cheated out of more value. I think about the first years of Posey, Trout, Harper, etc etc...all these young talents coming in...locked up for many years at way below market value. Not only are they cheap but they are very good even before their prime years. I really believe that Myers could have easily commanded way more in a trade.

Almost feels like the Royals GM did it to save his job. To get in one or two winning seasons in order to not get fired. Feels really rushed and far too hasty.

Then you gotta ask yourself...if Myers turns out to be a superstar in a year or two..how would you feel seeing a guy with all that power hitting for a different team? Lets say at the very least he becomes as good a power hitter as Giancarlo Stantion who hit 37 HRs last year for the Marlins and who is only 23...how would you feel then about the trade? I think its not easy to simply judge a trade by what it gives you now. Value is judged both ways. Total value is what counts.

[Roadrunner]

True story. When I attended Stonehill College, Lou Gorman, former BOS Redsox GM spoke to our class. Yes, Mr Gorman was a Stonehill grad. Anyway, he discussed the infamous trade he made...Sox acquired Larry Anderson (closer, w/ limited shelf life), for a prospect, Jeff Bagwell. I was like, no wonder you are the former GM of the Red Sox.

[freshnthehouse]

Do you remember what he said about the trade?

[Roadrunner]

Dec 23, 2012 1:31:19 GMT -5 freshnthehouse said:

Do you remember what he said about the trade?

He tried to justify the trade, by saying the team was in a pennant chase, and at the time Anderson was one of the best closers in the game.

On a side note, he also mentioned a prospect, Trot Nixson, who he said would be good. Don't think Nixson ever panned out.

[cfoo]

I agree with you rr. The difference here though is i'm not saying myers isn't good. I think he could be the best player in baseball in a few years. I also hated the greinke trade. The johnny damon trade. The beltran trade. I even hated it when they traded Brett Saberhagen at the end of his career. I hate trading in house players period if they are that good and part of a nucleus. That said I would have kept perk and traded Al JEfferson because Perk more fit what the c's were trying to do. my gut reaction on then trading perk was surprisingly good because i thought it fit well for the future. It really depends on the bigger picture.

the royals could have just reupped greinke and kept myers. It's small market stuff. They weren't going to pay all those guys.

The reason I'm defending this one is because they are a small market. And shields and davis aren't as bad as angel berroa. They also still have a ton of young talent and if it leads to them paying them it could turn out. If it just continues the revolving door of empty promises then that is more of the same royals baseball since the early to mid eighties.

I've always like Dayton Moore. I think he's brought in a ton of talent. He is the guy who drafted Soria witha supplemental pick and drafted all these guys so he's not stupid. He also let Soria walk to the texas rangers though.

[cfoo]

when i first heard of the trade i thought it was god awful and usually gut reactions are right. Then i started listening to royals fans defending it. I think time will tell with this one. IT's not as bad as some of the other deals I've seen. I really thought shields was overrated and not that good when i first heard it but the more i read the more I think he could be underrated.

I Also think sports have changed where you have to pick your spots. Its really difficult to just load up. We've seen the celtics have to pick their poison the last several years.

Even the thunder couldnt keep all their talent and had to let go of Harden. The rangers have had to make decisions as well on guys like hamilton etc.... I think this may be a case of Moore killing that stone before it gets turned.

They probably would have lost him anyways.

Reason I like the trade is it involves the royals getting veteran pitching. offense wins too but the rangers with all that offense have struggled against teams like san fran. But it could have been the royals turn. If they end up with a balanced attack it might turn out. THe good news is i think they will compete. Will they be the whitesox or another team that competes and never gets over the hump though? that's the question......

Did Moore jump the gun? Maybe...... Were the good royals back in the day built around superstars? Not really. They were built with pitching and nitch offensive players and george brett. The difference now is they dont have george brett. They do have Alex Gordon, Butler, Hosmer, MOustakis, Salvador Perez and guys like that though. Alex Gordon is a very underrated player and is probably the closest thing they have to brett.

If they now trade Gordon or Butler then they are morons. I think they could do some thigns with those guys though. They are basically banking on them hitting their prime.

[cfoo]

this trade makes this guy the next george brett. he even looks like him.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMegbbvdQVc

billy butler is also one of the more underrated bats in mlb. dude can flat out hit. they are hitting their prime. Plus moustakis and hosmer. Thats a very good core lineup.

put shields in there with wade davis and some of their young arms and could be exciting.

c17 knows ive been drafting alex gordon every year in the fantasy baseball league since he was drafted.

this is why i'm smart. I understand these things. Alex Gordon quietly moved from 3rd to left field and has won consecutive gold gloves. They need pitching.

people have been sleeping on alex gordon.

yes i'm even a cocky royals fan if thats even possible.

The royals were like the celtics in that regard though where there will be teams out there with stud players that make max money and rake in the stats and publicity as best ever, but they have guys taht fly under the radar and are just as good.

brett basically built his legacy on being an underdog and taking it to the yankees every year. i became a royals fan in the 80's because they were the team taking it to the yankees not the red sox. the red sox were a lot of hype back then as the underdog but they had a lot of overpaid coke sniffers like oil can boyd and paul stanley. The royals were getting it done. The celtics were getting it done as well. hopefully they can get back to that.

I dont think there were ever be another george brett or someone who plays with his passion because the way rules are players would be banned from the league but it would be nice to have something similar.

the issue is wil myers really could be that good. it's difficult to trade players like that and even greinke, but if they royals are planning to pay their other underrated guys and build a team i'm all for it. shields is a gritty sort of player and baller and could be unheralded as a leader to that staff. he was teh guy who really turned that rays rotation around and lead them. now he gets to do it with the royals and the trade makes sense to me in that regard. it's all speculation at this point though. it really depends on if the royals are committed to a direction.