cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Dec 28, 2006 18:17:17 GMT -5
IMO good players make others better by playing well, because they attract attention. I bet Derren when you are playing with a really good player, you get a lot of open looks right? It also makes it easier to pass because you know that guy can score.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Dec 28, 2006 18:18:43 GMT -5
but how about Jefferson making Pierce better too?
I think both Pierce and Jefferson have benefitted from each other's games. Before Pierce went down, he was getting a lot more open looks on single coverage because the defense was sagging to cover the post.
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Dec 28, 2006 18:20:51 GMT -5
exactly..... I think if Jefferson continues to step up his game, it's just going to make Pierce and the Celtics better. Pierce is one guy we have that can play, and the more players we get like that, the better we will be. I don't think Pierce is a selfish player. My reason for that is whenever guys play well around him, he does defer to the team.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Dec 28, 2006 18:33:23 GMT -5
IMO good players make others better by playing well, because they attract attention. I bet Derren when you are playing with a really good player, you get a lot of open looks right? It also makes it easier to pass because you know that guy can score. Yes, that's what I was refering to.
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Dec 28, 2006 18:34:06 GMT -5
And as far as the loafing sometimes and lack of concentration, I'm not advocating that, but I understand how frustrating it must be for Pierce to have to seemingly do so much, and still be on a losing team. My reasons for defending Pierce are pretty clear I think. He's a guy that plays hard every night imo and probably brings more to the table than anyone on the team. And when was the last time you heard Pierce (censored) and moan? Sure he does sometimes but I think he's been pretty good about things. It can't be easy being on a team that is so young.
if you heard him talking during the 4th quarter last night, he was very positive about things. Gorman was kind of picking at him about all the CEltics woes and how young and inexperienced they are, and he was very positive about all the young guys. He had very positive and nice things to say about Telfair, and Jefferson, etc... Pierce actually said somethign that really impressed me. He said he's a student of the game, and this gives him an opportunity to see things from a different perspective so when he comes back, he will have a better idea of where he can help.
The thing with Pierce is he is in a no win situation. He's saying very positive things, and guys like you EJA are saying he's a whiner. If Bird were here, he'd probably flat out say we are a crap team and we need to play better, and you would think that was great, but if Pierce were to say that he's whining.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Dec 28, 2006 18:37:29 GMT -5
exactly..... I think if Jefferson continues to step up his game, it's just going to make Pierce and the Celtics better. Pierce is one guy we have that can play, and the more players we get like that, the better we will be. I don't think Pierce is a selfish player. My reason for that is whenever guys play well around him, he does defer to the team. If Pierce plays well without having to dominate the ball, that will be ideal. We have to get away from relying so much on Pierce for our offense. Once Jefferson is a proven commodity, the scoring load will be spread out more evenly.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Dec 29, 2006 2:29:08 GMT -5
If Bird were here, he'd probably flat out say we are a crap team and we need to play better, and you would think that was great, but if Pierce were to say that he's whining. That is a very good point. Say what you want about Pierce but so far I cant question his effort or his commitment to this team. And in regards to the Bird comment, you have to look no further than the Jimmy Rodgers era to find Bird commenting on the state of the team to the media.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Dec 29, 2006 2:34:10 GMT -5
He's only a star player cause he dominates the ball the way Toine was. I don't think benching him for not running and not passing would affect him. I think he'd cry and talk about how he is the Celtics and Doc should get off his back, and basically I think he'd pull a crybaby Starburry routine. That's why I don't respect Starburry. He's made every team he ever touched worse. And PP isn't making us better. You cannot believe he doesnt make us a better team. With Paul, we'll prolly win about thirty games, without him, we'd struggle to win 20.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Dec 29, 2006 11:36:46 GMT -5
I don't think Pierce is a whiner. That's not the issue I have with him. My issue stems back from incidences that has occured over the years, even back to the days when we were winning a lot of games and making the playoffs.
Pierce has the talent to be one of the best players in the NBA, as in being an All-NBA 1st teamer. But sometimes, he'll seem disinterested in the game, as if he's got better stuff to do. Case in point, game 3 of the 2002 ECF against New Jersey. This is the ECF and we are challenging for the chance to go to the NBA Finals. At this point, every game is the biggest game of their careers because none of them had gotten this far before. And Pierce has one of his greatest moments in the 2nd half of this game, as he takes the team on his shoulders and wills them back from a 21 pt deficit to win the game in absolutely stunning fashion. But it would not have happened if Walker didn't know yell at him to play like he's capable of and take over. I don't remember exactly what Walker said, but it was something to the effect of this is our house and they are laughing at us, and he yelled at Pierce to play with urgency.
Fast forward a few years, and this time, it isn't the co-captain Walker telling Pierce to step up his game; its a 20 year old Perkins who has to tell Pierce to step up and play like he's capable of playing. And it takes a lot for Perkins to open his mouth (he normally leads by example and lets his actions speak for him).
Another time that made me sour on Pierce was when we were playing the Cavs in Cleveland, and it was a very close game in the 4th quarter. Both Pierce and Lebron were putting up big numbers (Lebron was in his second year, but was already going toe to toe with Pierce). Pierce was fouled and was ready to shoot his foul shots, but he noticed that the basket was crooked, so timeout was called and they began to work on it. As the basket was being repaired, Cleveland's mascot begins playing around to fill the time, and then Pierce starts joining in with him by tossing halfcourt shots backwards. I was pretty upset because if Pierce was focused on the game at hand and desperate not to let this game slip out of their hands, he would be in the huddle with the players, trying to motivate them to win this tight game. He would have taken this extra time to get everyone on the same page and pumped them up to make a final charge. But instead, Pierce is laughing it up, trying to entertain the crowd (which he did), and we end up losing the game.
Now I don't think Pierce is a natural leader and some people will say that Pierce is a leader by his actions. But these two incidences should indicate that Pierce is not really a leader by his actions either.
Like I said, I think Pierce is a special talent, and he could be an All-NBA 1st team player. But I've struggled giving him my full endorsement because of things like this. If he was the second best player on the team, I think we'd be much better off.
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Post by eja117 on Dec 29, 2006 12:33:11 GMT -5
For what it's worth I think Paul was a way better player and leader last year. But we have to look at these things.
Did Bird or McHale pass to open guys? Were they able to find open guys and then pass to them? Did they protect and look out for each other. When Bird stole a ball did the other guys run down the court as fast as they could immediately?
Ok now. Does PP pass up looks to open teammates in order to score himself? Did he not make the absolutely incredibly selfish/dumb decision to try to shoot the winning shot while triple teamed and injured the other night and not even get the shot off? I didn't see it, but I can only imagine what that would have looked like. I'm imagining maybe Jefferson or Gomes open near the basket and Delonte open at the three point line. Please tell me that wasn't the case.
Brady absolutely makes a lot of people around him better. You can tell by the way he won a Super Bowl his first year starting, but that Bledsoe would never ever have done that and by the way tons of receivers leave the team and are never heard from again and guys like Rechce Caldwell come to the team and have record years. Actually Brady kind of is a miracle worker or at least was.
I put PP in the same category as Starburry cause I think he's a new age MJ wannabe who is doing a lot what Kobe is doing and is learning the hard way. He'd rather be the top scorer or two on a mediocre or bad team, than the number 3,4, or 5 guy on a championship team, and then he doesn't run or pass when they aren't winning, and tries to trade his teammates for the easy way out (Iverson).
There is just no way some other guys do that. I guess I was very influenced by that Florida Gators video. They asked Noah who he'd rather have Redick or Morrison and he says Taquan Dean cause he doesn't care about those other guys cause they aren't the Gators. You ask PP the same question and he says AI. If you look at that video and there were like 19 highlights in a row where every single score was a pass. Passes from the best guy to the worst again and again and again. And why did Noah pass to the worst player on the floor? Cause he was open. And every single player comes back for a senior season. That's the difference between that Florida team and PP's Kansas teams. And pro teams. I guarantee you trade PP, GG, and AL to the Timberwolves for KG and the Timberwolves get worse, while we get better. Is it cause of talent or something (or someone) else.
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