cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Dec 28, 2006 15:36:41 GMT -5
Just wondering what people would like to see as their starting 5 once Paul comes back
PG-This is my toughest choice. I can't decide whether to go with Delonte, Telfair, or Rondo. Right now I'd probably go with Delonte but he can't seem to stay healthy... SG-Allen has cemented his status at the starting sg spot imo SF-Pierce PF-Jefferson-This is also a tough choice. Jefferson was working pretty well as our starting center. I would like to see Jefferson and Perk playing together more though. I'm split on whether i want to use Perk as a Center off the bench or use Perk and Jefferson together and might as well try this for now. C-Perk
Bench 6th Man-Wally Green as the other main scorer off the bench Rondo/TElfair can battle it out for the backup pg, as I want this unit to really run Gomes Powe Scal
That's a 11 man rotation and actually 12 players that should play. This isn't set in stone or anything. I just think those are the 12 players that should play adn it's impossible to get everyone time. I'm still split on whether to start Jefferson at Center and use Perk off the bench or not.
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Dec 28, 2006 15:40:46 GMT -5
As much as we all hate Doc, I have to say it's easier said than done to get a rotation out of this team. I"m struggling to figure it out myself, so how can I blame Doc for having a tough time. It just seems like when players get injured it's a lot easier to choose a set rotation, but when everyone is healthy it's really difficult.
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Post by eja117 on Dec 28, 2006 15:45:10 GMT -5
Pg - The best pg (Rondo) sg - GG sf - Gomes pf - AL c- Perk
6th man Wally backup pg - Since West is hurt I guess Bassy, but Delonte deserves it and probably wants it more. I wouldn't want Bassy to get benched and have it crush his confidence. West's wouldn't be. Then again do we want a mentally weak player on our team?
Stuck to the bench- PP and Scala
getting as many minutes as they can Powe and TA
Let teams make offers for PP who would never take his benching like a man
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Post by freshnthehouse on Dec 28, 2006 15:50:04 GMT -5
Let teams make offers for PP who would never take his benching like a man What does take his benching like a man mean? If he didn't complain, I'd be worried. THe last thhing i want is my star player to be happy about his team losing games on purpose, which is what we'd be doing if we benched Pierce.
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Post by eja117 on Dec 28, 2006 15:57:02 GMT -5
He's only a star player cause he dominates the ball the way Toine was. I don't think benching him for not running and not passing would affect him. I think he'd cry and talk about how he is the Celtics and Doc should get off his back, and basically I think he'd pull a crybaby Starburry routine. That's why I don't respect Starburry. He's made every team he ever touched worse. And PP isn't making us better.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Dec 28, 2006 16:00:08 GMT -5
PG- either Telfair or Rondo (whoever is doing a better job of scoring) SG- Tony SF- Pierce PF- Jefferson C- Perk
Bench: (most minutes): Wally, Gomes, Telfair/Rajon, Delonte (spot minutes): Scalabrine, Allan Ray, Powe, Olowokandi, Theo
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Dec 28, 2006 16:29:53 GMT -5
He's only a star player cause he dominates the ball the way Toine was. I don't think benching him for not running and not passing would affect him. I think he'd cry and talk about how he is the Celtics and Doc should get off his back, and basically I think he'd pull a crybaby Starburry routine. That's why I don't respect Starburry. He's made every team he ever touched worse. And PP isn't making us better. Wow... I don't even know how to respond to some people.
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Post by eja117 on Dec 28, 2006 16:40:56 GMT -5
Oh I'm sorry. I forgot all about PP's unflappable record of success going all the way back to his college days. Now that was a team he lead really far. No underachieving there. No underachieving now either. Just cause a guy scores tons of points by dominating the ball, (but not ever playing well enough to lead his team to anything worthwhile) doesn't make him good.
Also he didn't lead us to the Easter Conference Finals. Toine did. Toine led us again when he came back.
Maybe I'm wrong.Maybe we should trade GG to the Knicks for Starburry.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Dec 28, 2006 16:41:51 GMT -5
We were on a 5 game winning streak and Pierce got hurt adn now we are playing some of the worst basketball the Celtics have ever played. And you say Pierce doesn't make us better? How about pointing the finger at some of the crappy players we have playing currently? How about saying they need to play better? Pierce has been nothing but a class act in his time here, and we are lucky he is still here, as bad as this team is. Pierce is not a miracle worker. Who do you suggest we get to replace him? Now is the time for the young guys to step up, and they are just showing how inexperienced this team really is.
Oh poor Al, he can't get teh ball, because Pierce is dominating it. Jefferson was playing some of his best basketball with Pierce in the lineup, because Jefferson was playing better, not because Pierce was unwilling to give it up. Do you see Jefferson crying? He says himself he needs to play better. Stop crying about Pierce, it's not his fault. Any player with any balls on the Celtics knows it's on them to play better, and they will get the ball. Pierce deserves the basketball, the other players need to earn it.
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Post by eja117 on Dec 28, 2006 16:55:23 GMT -5
Fair enough. He definitely is not a miracle worker, but AL isn't doing so much better cause of PP. It's cause he finaly got play time cause of injuries to every single other big man on the team (except I guess Powe and Gomes). I think the guy we should get to replac him is GG. Is there not a huge difference between the way Wally works with the ball and PP? I totally agree that the players we have now aren't so great. Doesn't PP have any responsibility at all for that? How can our points do better if PP is a black whole? How can anyone do better? How can a pg get an assist if they run up the floor and PP is behind them? No team with PP as its best player has ever won anything or ever will. He knows this, and won't change and it's exactly why he was all about getting AI. Trade GG or AL? Fine by him. There's a reason. When I saw him in person they asked him about getting AI. He said "With me and AI all you need is 3 other rebounders" Brilliant. What a leader.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Dec 28, 2006 17:15:45 GMT -5
You aren't getting it EJA. Pierce has never had a problem deferring to the team, when the team plays better around him. The problem is they haven't been. Pierce is not a miracle worker, he is not going to make Jefferson a star. Jefferson is going to make Jefferson a star. Pierce can help him by attracting double teams away from him, and leaving Jefferson alone in the paint. As you can see Jefferson got swallowed up several times last game by multiple defenders and he didn't know how to handle it.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Dec 28, 2006 17:20:14 GMT -5
Let me ask you this? Did it bother Larry Bird, that Kevin Mchale was a black hole? EVery time the ball went to Kevin he shot it. No, because Bird was a good enough player to produce his own offense even with Mchale shooting it every time he got the ball. Those Celtics teams dominated and shot ridiculous percentages, because they had so many guys that could score when they had it, and teams could not double up on anyone. Any one of those guys was a black hole for opposing defenses that is. Just imagine if Jefferson becomes that type of player that is just going to leave Pierce and Jefferson one on one and their percentages will just go up.
When Mchale was drafted he was told by Red that he is a good player and to just go prove it. Did Bird make Mchale a star? Nope. Mchale just went out there and did his thing.
Some people have this ridiculous inclination that Pierce is supposed to make everyone better. That's not how it works. People think Bird made everyone aroudn him better. That's not what it was. Mchale, Parish, Bird were all great players that just did their thing, and they made each other better by doing that.
Pierce is the one good player we have on a very bad team. Put a couple other very good players next to Pierce, and this team wins a championship. Pierce had Antoine and we got to game 7 of the conference finals. The problem was we were never able to get that 3rd piece. Duncan was supposed to be that, and had we gotten Duncan we would have strung off several championships in a row.
Take a player like Iverson. Here is a player people consider selfish. He gave up passing on the sixers a long time ago, because the team around him is crap. I guarentee he is going to be a success in Denver. Just look at Brady this year, he has no receivers and people are blaming Brady for that. Even Brady isn't a miracle worker. The Cowboys in the early 90's had Aikman, Emmitt and Irvin. People considered Irvin a selfish player because he demanded the ball. Irvin retired and all of a sudden Aikman wasn't the same player. It's a team game, but even the best players need a supporting cast. EVen Jordan didn't win until the Bulls put something around him.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Dec 28, 2006 18:08:04 GMT -5
Good players do make others better. Pippen was a fantastic player in his own right, but Jordan made him one of the 50 greats. I played with basketball players who were muc better than me, and they have made me look better than I really am.
Most of you know that I'm not the biggest Pierce fan around. But my thing with Pierce isn't that he doesn't make others around him better. I woulld be much happier with Pierce if he wasn't the main guy on the team. If he played second fiddle to Shaq, I'd like him much more. I think that role suits him much better.
For instance, if we traded for Gasol, I would really like the trio of Gasol, Jefferson and Pierce, and I think that team could be an eventual title contender. But I don't feel that a Pierce-led team will become a title contender.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Dec 28, 2006 18:11:20 GMT -5
I agree that good players make other players better, but it's not in the way that you guys seem to think. My last post explained that. If you watched Jefferson last game, he has been playing better, but because of Pierce's absence teams started double and triple teaming him last game, and Jefferson didn't know how to handle it. Jefferson has a ways to go before he starts making players around him better himself. It goes both ways. People expect Pierce to make everyone better, but how about Jefferson making Pierce better too?
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Dec 28, 2006 18:16:36 GMT -5
Right, no argument there. Jefferson is still a long ways away from being the player he can be. But the great thing is that he's just 21 yrs old and he's getting better all the time. Having Pierce has kept teams from doubling up on him every time down. If guys like Telfair, Wally, Gomes, Green, etc., can start burying perimeter jumpers when Big Al kicks the ball out of the post, he'll get more breathing room to operate his offense. But until they do, Jefferson will continue to see a barrage of different defensive looks.
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