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Post by eja117 on Aug 21, 2006 8:35:23 GMT -5
No, that was me reminding you. Perk got better in his second season, then got better in his third, whereas all Al did in his second season was get hurt (when he had already been hurt the season before, and now he is hurt again). Therefore following trends we can expect Perk to get better again and AL not to. Unless they break the trend. Why is it ok for a player to get hurt? If Scala was getting hurt missing huge portions of the season people would point to his lack of heart and lack of conditioning. When Al gets hurt we should all feel sorry for him.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Aug 21, 2006 11:30:02 GMT -5
So 1 year of injuries and you are ready to claim that Al is an injury proned player for the rest of his career? Did you say the same thing for Michael Jordan when he had his season cut short because of injuries during his sophomore season? Oh, forget about this kid. He'll never amount to anything because he'll be injury proned for the rest of his career.
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Post by eja117 on Aug 21, 2006 13:06:45 GMT -5
If I had been a Bulls fan at the time I wouldn't have been happy about MJ getting hurt. I also don't think Al is MJ. It's also fair to point out that MJ was I think 22 when he got hurt and Al was 19 and 20. MJ's body was more mature, and I assume that getting hurt when you are a little older and have played 3 years of injury free ACC ball and then a year of NBA ball without getting hurt is a better indication of long term health than coming into the league at 18 and getting hurt and missing 11 games, then playing bad in the summer partly due to a lack of conditioning, then getting hurt and missing 23 games, then getting hurt the next summer again. MJ had proven a lot more by the same point. If you went to draft a sophomore kid who had played college ball, but had gotten hurt each year he played and in the offseasons he would reasonably slip in the draft. You can't just dismiss injuries and say "oh well everyone gets hurt" cause they don't. Another example is Charlotte. If I were them right now I'd be shaking in my boots over the long term health of both Sean May and Emeka. Look at what Fresh was saying about Ilgauskas a while ago, even though he has basically played 4 full seasons in a row now. It is hard to shake a rep for getting hurt and easy to earn it. Al hasn't done anything right now to be considered a player with good health. I would be willing to guess that he will miss time again this year. If he plays less than 75 games we have to face facts that he may be one of those players that will never make it through a full season. If he plays 82 games I will have to shut up about him being injury prone and eat my words, especially if Perk plays less than 75 games, which could certainly happen. To be fair to Perk though (something that pretty much never happens) he plays a more injury prone position in the sense that it's a lot easier to get hurt trying to defend Shaq, than trying to defend Chris Bosh.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Aug 21, 2006 13:47:41 GMT -5
Eja, this is so ridiculous that I'm convinced that you are either totally anti-Al Jefferson, or you are very closed minded.
Jefferson plays a perfectly healthy rookie year in which he makes the All-Rookie second team (as well as the Rookie All-Star team, scoring something like 16 pts). In his second season, he injures his ankle because he doesn't tape his ankles. Had he taped his ankles, we may not be having this ridiculous conversation right now. His injury may not have been that severe.
The kid only played 2 seasons so far. 2 seasons. One perfectly healthy, the other injury riddled because of his foolishness for not taping his ankles.
If Jefferson sprains his ankles from jumping too much, or he hurts his back from sneezing, then yes, he is injury proned and we should be weary of his future. But this is not the case with Jefferson and his current predicament. He badly rolls his ankle, which is very common in sports, and he ends up having loose bone chips that hinder his healing process for months. How in the world are you going to assume his career path based on a freak ankle injury?
Its like baseball tryouts. Lets say a young pitcher is on the mound, pitching his heart out to make the team. The coaching staffs are raving about him because he's effortlessly hitting 93 mph on the radar, he's showing excellent command of his pitches, and they see a lot of potential in his body as he matures and develops more body strength. But as the pitching coach goes over to the mound to talk to the guy, the catcher accidentally throws the ball back to the mound, not realizing that the kid is not looking. The ball knocks the kid squarely on the noggin with a loud "konk" and the kid drops to his knees. He's diagnosed with a mild concussion and won't be able to tryout for the rest of the day.
The coaching staff have already made up their mind that this kid has the talent to make the team and excel once he harnesses his talent. And they are willing to be patient as he develops because they see the high potential this kid's body.
But you see it as, "hey this kid is injury prone. If he gets knocked to his knees by a simple high school catcher throwing a fastball at his head, imagine the damage Ivan Rodrigues will cause when he plays for the pros. Potential blah blah blah. This kid can't even avoid getting beaned in tryouts. How in the world is he going to cut it playing in the big leagues? Off with head."
This is totally exagerrating it, I know. But Eja, this is what our conversation is about. Jefferson shows a world of talent, but because he injures his ankle and can't play or perform in his second season in the NBA, you are done with him already. Do you see how ridiculous this is?
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Post by eja117 on Aug 21, 2006 14:36:34 GMT -5
I am not pro Al J. His first season I thought he showed a ton of promise. Then I couldn't understand why he didn't dominate during the next summer league. Since he had the ability to do so I interpreted the reason he didn't play well was because either he didn't care enough and chose not to, or because he didn't take his career as seriously as Perk and chose not to get into shape or because he was hurt. If he was hurt, and then he got hurt the next season (maybe cause he didn't care enough to tape his ankles) and then he got hurt the next summer, then what we are starting to see is a pattern of getting hurt for whatever reason. Is everything I just said logical?
In the mean time your baseball analogy is kind of interesting cause it's not so different from what happened to Kerry Wood except that he didn't get hit by the catcher, but people in Chicago are seeing that this young kid is basically injury prone.
You say he played a perfectly healthy rookie season? So he was held out of 11 games or hurt? I don't think he got hardly any DNP-CDs his rookie season, so I assume he was hurt his rookie season for 11 games. That's an 8th of a season and I don't consider it perfectly healthy. I think if you play the summer league without getting hurt and then play your whole rookie season without getting hurt that is a perfectly healthy season. Gomes had that. GG had that. TA had that. Delonte didn't.
If you want to accuse me of being close mined to certain things I would totally agree that I am close minded to certain things. I am close minded to "sophomore slumps." What the heck is that anyway? No great player in the history of the game ever had a sophomore slump except interestingly Jordan who only played 18 games or maybe Emeka who we don't know will be good yet. Usually you get better your second season. There isn't really an excuse for not getting better. I am close minded to Perk coming in and looking awesome and then obviously being our toughest player, and having Al coming in looking the exact opposite, then getting hurt and told we need to have "patience" with him. I am close minded as to the value of the evil pword vs the good pword (proof). I am close minded to seeing guys like Perk and Gomes and Delonte and even GG and Wally showing really a dramatic amount of toughness and playing every game like it's their last or like the other players are trying to take food out of their families' mouths and then doing everything they can in the offseasons to dominate any level of competition they can, and Gomes even going out looking for more competition, even if it's fairly obscure and other players kind of just plodding along and playing ok and kinda letting the game come to them (whatever that means) and not really getting too up or too down (whatever that means). I have never figured out how a player like Perk can coexist with players that aren't like him and always felt sorry for guys like that. You get the distinct feeling that when he was about 3 years old Perk made a pact with himself that he would never be outhustled ever under any circumstances and till now I don't see that from Al and I am pretty close minded to that.
In your baseball analogy where are the other players that play harder and work harder than your hurt young star with all the talent? Maybe you think Al works just as hard and plays just as hard than the other players but I don't. I'm not even exactly saying the guy is lazy. Just that for a long time now he has been hurt and that he is one of the worst conditioned players on the team and that he doesn't play as hard as many other players on the team. I didn't even think he played or worked as hard as J Reed and now J Reed is starting. I'm not saying I'd rather have Reed than Al, just that I admire Reed more and you need a team full of players you admire and that the more players that are just talented the less tough your team is and the less you win. One guy who doesn't work as hard can ruin it for a team way faster than two guys who work really hard can elevate a team.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Aug 21, 2006 15:19:21 GMT -5
You say he played a perfectly healthy rookie season? So he was held out of 11 games or hurt? I don't think he got hardly any DNP-CDs his rookie season, so I assume he was hurt his rookie season for 11 games.
Yes, he did accumulate a bunch of DNP-CD's. You don't believe that Doc plays his rookies in every game do you?
In the mean time your baseball analogy is kind of interesting cause it's not so different from what happened to Kerry Wood except that he didn't get hit by the catcher, but people in Chicago are seeing that this young kid is basically injury prone.
Kerry Woods has proven to be injury proned for consecutive seasons and is now looking like he may never regain his form from earlier in his career. Jefferson has only been injured during his second season. You will have to watch what happens over the course of maybe 5 years before seeing a trend, whether he is injury prone or if his injury riddled second season was just a fluke.
No great player in the history of the game ever had a sophomore slump
Exactly. No GREAT player is the key word here. Jefferson is not going to be a great player. But he does have potential to be a star caliber player, and there are tons of evidence of star level players going through sophmore slumps. You think they just made up that phrase for nothing? And BTW, Jefferson did not have a sophmore slump--he statistically did better this year than in his rookie year.
I am close minded to Perk coming in and looking awesome and then obviously being our toughest player, and having Al coming in looking the exact opposite, then getting hurt and told we need to have "patience" with him
Alright, Perkins hurts his shoulder twice. That's it, off with his head, he's done. What a lousy guy, can't even stay healthy. How are we ever going to rely on someone who can't avoid injury? Doesn't make sense right? We are practicing patience with both Jefferson and Perkins.
I am close minded to seeing guys like Perk and Gomes and Delonte and even GG and Wally showing really a dramatic amount of toughness and playing every game like it's their last or like the other players are trying to take food out of their families' mouths and then doing everything they can in the offseasons to dominate any level of competition they can, and Gomes even going out looking for more competition, even if it's fairly obscure and other players kind of just plodding along and playing ok and kinda letting the game come to them (whatever that means) and not really getting too up or too down (whatever that means).
Agreed. Jefferson hasn't always had the inner drive to be the best he can be. But you are looking at the past my friend. Jefferson has been trying to re-invent himself this summer and he now understands how much work it takes to be good in the NBA.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Aug 21, 2006 15:38:35 GMT -5
I am not pro Al J. His first season I thought he showed a ton of promise. Then I couldn't understand why he didn't dominate during the next summer league. Since he had the ability to do so I interpreted the reason he didn't play well was because either he didn't care enough and chose not to, or because he didn't take his career as seriously as Perk and chose not to get into shape or because he was hurt. If he was hurt, and then he got hurt the next season (maybe cause he didn't care enough to tape his ankles) and then he got hurt the next summer, then what we are starting to see is a pattern of getting hurt for whatever reason. Is everything I just said logical? If I remember correctly, both Al AND Perk had bad summer leagues that year. Someone with more ambition that me can look that up, but if memory serves me, I think that was the case. I dont think he didnt tape his ankles because he didnt 'care.' It was more youthful mistake than a lake of effort. Liken to a young not wearing a helmet while riding dirtbike. He doesnt think he'll need it, until he takes his first major spill. It was stupid, but not unacceptable to wear a helmet, as long as he remembers to do so in the future. GG barely played. I wouldnt lump him in with guys thatve went through the rigors of an NBA season and not gotten hurt. I think sophmore slumps is something you see more in baseball than any other sport. You start out like a ball of fire, then the opposing teams get to learn your tendancies, and your #s go do once teams learn how to hit/pitch to you better. Most sophmore slumps seem to be related to injury(though I remember for King Lionel Simmons suffering from a soph slump. Thanks early 90s Fleer basketball cards!) And when he was on the court, Al looked better, especially on the defensive end. His footwork went from atrocious to borderline acceptable on the defensive end(the amount of charges he took can testify to that). Even his numbers took a slight jump. His exact opposite? Last i checked, Perk didnt exactly start the world on fire. Do you think you might possibly be playing him up a bit? Wow. How hard is your backlash on Perk gonna be if he doesnt live up to being the hardest working player in the NBA? Dont you think you are going overboard with this? For a long time now? He should up to one season not in the best of shape, and he missed some games in the second half of the year. Thats a long time? Kind of off the subject, but I dont think Reed's gonna start. The T-Wolves will probably start James Foye Davis Garnett Blount. I dont think anyone is questioning this. I think what most people are saying is that judging a player in his second year straight out of high school is jumping the gun. Kids change. They grow up. Martina navitrilova is the best example I can think of. She went from a talented yet completely lazy, to one of the hardest working tennis athletes weve ever seen.
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Post by eja117 on Aug 21, 2006 15:43:27 GMT -5
I was under the impression that Doc didn't hold Al out of any games cause he is a golden boy. It's not like he was Perk who got into like 11 games his rookie year.
Kerry Wood started missing games his first season when he was 21 and then missed the entire 199 season and then started missing more. He played two full seasons around 2003 around the middle of his career and since then hasn't played a full season. So his first 3 seasons were indicitive of how hurt he would get over the course of his career.
Would you say Al J accomplished what he should have his second season? Then it's a sophomore slump. Those things aren't good. I am looking at a list of over 50 NBA fantasy players (the top 10 at every position and then honorable mentions). Very few of them had sophomore slumps and nearly all had emerged by the end of their second season and few of them have lots of injury problems and the ones that do are pretty big disappointments.
I am very concerned about Perk's shoulder and am not happy about it. If he doesn't play more games this year than last I will start to think he is injury prone, but it certainly isn't for lack of effort and hustle.
Looking at the past? The past is always always the best predictor of the future. If he doesn't have the inner drive then trade him already. I hope he does reinvent himself. First of all because he needs to, second because if he doesn't but he keeps getting minutes it's a slap in the face to the other players on the team, and third if he doesn't then at least then we should trade him. We can probably get something good for him.
Patience. Now there is another aweful aweful pword. "hey this guy is really bad and doesn't play hard" "oh have patience he's only 20."
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Aug 21, 2006 15:57:40 GMT -5
Would you say Al J accomplished what he should have his second season? Then it's a sophomore slump. Those things aren't good.
How in the world is Jefferson going to accomplish anything when he was injured for a good portion of the season? Even when he came back, he was playing injured.
Patience. Now there is another aweful aweful pword. "hey this guy is really bad and doesn't play hard" "oh have patience he's only 20."
Eja, were your parents upset that you weren't walking on your own 3 weeks after being born? What about if you couldn't drive a car at the age of 4, were they ready to give up on you? Of course you need patience. Jefferson, Perkins, Gerald and all the young guys aren't anywhere near the player they will be 5 years from now.
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Post by eja117 on Aug 21, 2006 16:03:04 GMT -5
I guess we have very different time frames. I think you can basically tell if a player will be good pretty much right away and I don't believe in waiting years for something, especially when they show signs of not being willing to do what it takes to be good (something you said). So I guess we agree this is a big year for Al, and I'm not sure what will happen. I have mediocre faith in him
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Aug 21, 2006 20:41:40 GMT -5
I think you can basically tell if a player will be good pretty much right away and I don't believe in waiting years for something, especially when they show signs of not being willing to do what it takes to be good (something you said).
Eja, how many times have you seen Al Jefferson play over the past 2 seasons? Numbers and stats don't tell the whole story.
So Jermaine O'Neal proves absolutely nothing in his first 4 years in the league, averaging only about 3 points, 3 rebounds. Tracy McGrady was an 8 pt, 5 reb guy his first 2 years. These are hardly the type of numbers you would expect from future star players. But like you said, you can tell good players right off the bat. I feel I'm a pretty good judge of talent and I see it in Jefferson. He's got a lot of natural talent and instincts that you just can't coach.
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Post by eja117 on Aug 21, 2006 22:12:55 GMT -5
I've seen him play a handful of times. I haven't seen Rondo or Sebastian or any of our rookies play. I live in New England so I have no problem seeing games but I have to go by stats and newspaper articles on summer league games. There seemed to be some pros and cons there.
i would have to say no Jermaine O'Neal and tracy mcgrady prove very very little and don't apply here even a little bit for a multitude of reasons
for one thing Jermaine had not shown much at the time he was traded. In fact Al has shown more. For another thing had he entered the draft now I imagine he would go much higher. When jermaine entered the league there were exactly 3 high schoolers in it and an expansion team less. And I think there were only two freshmen. The next year Tracy was the 4th high schooler and Tim Thomas was the third freshmen. I have tried to look at the NBA drafts of those periods and I feel pretty confident that at the time the league was a far older and more competitive league and nobody had any idea what the time frame was for a high schooler or even what would or could happen. KG had averaged about 10ppg the year before and that was it. Kobe was the only high schooler at that time who had met the academic requirements to go to college and opted not to cause KG and Jermaine had failed the SATs and Kobe was widely regarded as the TOP player in high school that year. Comparing the high schoolers today to the high schoolers then is like comparing maybe the Wright Brothers to Neil Armstrong. A much better comparison would be if maybe we drafted the top 8th grader in the country. I would be the fuddy duddy saying "this is ridiculous. i don't want to wait 4 years". Three years later people would be saying "This kid needs another 4 years, he's not even college age yet". Sorry, but drafting an 8th grader would not warrant the kid 8 years of patience. Another reason this does not apply is that the two players you mentioned are gold medal superstars and we'll be lucky if AL is even an all-star. When McGrady was drafted he was probably actually the best or 2nd best swing man in that draft. I don't think there were any players far more proven than him. It wasn't till a few years later in 1999 that high schoolers who were unproven and really not very good were taken ahead of players far more proven when Jonathan Bender was taken ahead of guys like Ron Artest and Jason Terry and Richard Hamilton and Wally and Shawn Marion. By 2001 and Tyson Chandler was taken ahead of Battier the cat was well out of the bag and drafting evil pword over good pword was routine. Nowadays a high schooler is like any other rookie and there is no real reason to wait on them any more than any other player or draft them ahead of guys like Jameer Nelson who proved that even a player of the year take a year to develop into a star and make the guys who took Telfair over him look pretty dumb, even though Telfair held his own against him in a workout. Also JON and Tracy both improved bit by bit. They didn't regress or have serious injury problems till much later. Also had JON been on a team like ours and not had the competition that he had he would have gotten a lot more minutes sooner. He didn't exactly take 4 years to develop. he took 4 years to get traded to a team where he could show what he could do. A player that took years to develop and get much better is Al Harrington who is a far better comparison partly cause he was drafted much later. But even then you can't be too mad at harrington seeing as how he was drafted at the end of the first round, not the lottery like AL. And no i don't think Al harrington is worth waiting 4 years for unless he is part of an elaborate tanking/timing strategy.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Aug 22, 2006 3:35:53 GMT -5
for one thing Jermaine had not shown much at the time he was traded.
Not according to his teammates and people with good eyes for talent. They knew he could play. Even as a young pup only a season or two removed from high school, he was proving himself in practice against veterans. Indiana obviously saw something in him.
So what I'm getting from you, in a nutshell, is that if you had Jermaine O"neal in your hands, you would trade him after his first or second season because he couldn't prove to you that he was going to be anything special. This proves exactly why I question your ability to spot talent. Its plainly obvious to see that Jefferson has talent. The kid does things so easily and instictively. And had he not have gotten injured this past season, I have no doubt that he would have had a much better year that even you would not be able to criticize him.
This offseason, he was putting in a lot of extra work to improve his game, and once his ankle heals from the surgery to remove bone chips, he'll be back in the gym working on his game again. He should be able to prove to you that he's not a lazy player.
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Post by eja117 on Aug 22, 2006 9:12:13 GMT -5
Oh Derren that is so ridiculous. Why aren't you an NBA scout then? Are you? College? If he was so obviously talented why did they trade him? Yes, I might be willing to trade a guy who didn't do much besides get hurt if I had guys like Sabonis and Rasheed Wallace ahead of him.
You guys can question my ability to see "talent" ,whatever that means, all you want. Then I guess I have to question your ability to see leadership, toughness, work ethic, and production. All the things Perk brings to the table. Even if he does have talent what good is it if he comes in out of shape, doesn't play hard, and gets hurt? Fine maybe he won't get hurt this year. What would be really bad for me is if he plays an 82 game season and Perk gets hurt and plays like 59. But that doesn't change the fact that for over an entire year now going back to last last summer league he has been out of shape and hurt. Jermaine O'Neal chewed up the summer league after his first year. In terms of spotting talent it's not like it used to be. You used to get guys like Jermaine ONeal with the 17th pick. Nowadays guys like Al J get drafted ahead of guys like jameer Nelson and I question those people's abilities to see talent. (Not DA, that's not my point.)
Al can prove to me he's not a lazy player all he wants. I don't think he's about to show me that he's less lazy than Perk or Gomes or Delonte.
What about those three players? Do they ever do anything effortlessly like AL? What do you guys have against lunch pail players? I guess they do things effortfully, so they aren't as "talented" as Al? So I guess since Karl Malone had the work ethic of 20 missionary nuns, and never got hurt, and always was the hardest player on the court, you'd look at him and say "He doesn't do things effortlessly like AL. I think we need to trade him." I guess you'd look at Larry Bird spending hours and hours in the video room and be like "Gee if he spends hours in there he must not be very intuitive like Al, so we oughta trade him"
A day or so ago you said statistics don't tell the whole story. So I guess you'd look at all those 82 game seasons MJ played and think "Doesn't really mean anything. Just that he never landed awkwardly".
You're absolutly right. I never looked at talent and I'm not a conossoir of anything. I just look at who plays best and hardest and so far that has been Perk and Gomes. I guess I should question your ability to see who is best or best for the team.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Aug 22, 2006 11:19:01 GMT -5
If he was so obviously talented why did they trade him?
Because they weren't smart. Do you think trading Jermaine O'Neal away was a good move on Portland's part?
Then I guess I have to question your ability to see leadership, toughness, work ethic, and production. All the things Perk brings to the table.
Its funny how you try to make it sound like Jefferson offers none of those things. He's no slug, Eja. Production? Al Jefferson put up 21 and 12 against the Mavericks last season. Last season, he had 21 games in which he scored in double figures (compared to Perk's 11) and he had 5 double doubles (Perk had 4). Keep in mind that Perkins played in 9 more games and averaged 2 more minutes on the court than Jefferson (not to mention playing without a sore ankle). I'm not trying to make Perkins sound inadequate, but when you question Jefferson's production, I scratch my head.
Read FL12's news section this morning. There's a piece on our strength and conditioning coaches and it mentions that Perk came into the league weighing in as much as 308 lbs and having 25% body fat. Obviously, he didn't come into the league with tremendous work ethics. But he's been able to change his mindset and become this workaholic who has transformed hsi body and game. Now its Jefferson's time to change his mindset and become a workaholic, and from what we've been hearing this summer, he's turned the corner with his conditioning.
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