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Post by greenblood on Mar 7, 2006 16:02:11 GMT -5
I strongly disagree with the school of thought that says we should tank the rest of the season to get a high lottery pick. First of all, there is no Lebron's or Duncan's in this years draft. Second of all, does anyone here remeber the '97 season. M.L Carr tanked it to get Duncan, and I think we all remember how that turned out, if not just watch last year's NBA Finals.
I don't even care all that much about the playoff experience for the kids. They will get trounced by Detroit anyways, so not much in the form of experience there. I do, however, care about the type of precedent and culture losing sets on a young team. In order to grow into a good team, you must instill an attitude in which losing is never acceptable, no matter what the "reward". We need guys that absolutely hate to lose and this will not be accomplished by giving them excuses to accept losing.
With a group of young kids, who still have long careers ahead of them, it is important to fuel their hunger now, for most guys in the league don't seriously get hungry until they see that window starting to close. Fighting for draft position simply is not going to fuel this fire, it only provides excuses for lazy and stupid basketball. This attitude starts at the top, and I believe Danny and Doc need to stop making excuses for losing, and openly state they want to make the playoffs and that they don't care about draft position.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2006 16:51:21 GMT -5
If you play to lose then you will always be a loser in my book. It's not like we're going to be in position to get a marquee player in this draft so why bother trying tanking the season? That's why you'll never hear about coaches to play to lose because it's really a concept made up by the media/draft guru fans who think a high draft will save this franchise.
That's what DA is trying to build right now. Get rid of the negative players and install a system where the only goal is to put a banner up in the rafters.
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Post by eja117 on Mar 7, 2006 17:04:50 GMT -5
I think the Globe made a good point. You don't tell your players to lose. You just give the vets more rest (especially Wally's knee) and give guys like Gerald Green more minutes. I don't think giving GG minutes creates a culture of losing, just because it would result in a few more losses and better draft position. We could try to ride Pierce 45 mins a nite and win an extra game or two and then get swept in the playoffs, and go from the 8th pick to 15th, but I don't think that would create a culture of winning.
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Post by greenblood on Mar 7, 2006 18:26:38 GMT -5
I think that not going all out everynight to win, including decisions by the coaching staff who have stated already that you have to earn your minutes, adds to a losing culture. I mean, the guys might by young, but they can see if the team is really giving it's all everynight to win games. If they see that GG is getting more playing time than Wally, clearly it shows that Doc has thrown in the towel, even if he says he wants to win every game. This is a terrible message to send to the young guys, I mean look what happened in Chicago. They had one good season last year, but because of that losing culture their players accepted, they have been unable to win, despite a very talented roster. With or without Curry, they should have a much better record than they do.
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Post by Celtic17 on Mar 7, 2006 18:41:04 GMT -5
Plain and simple... NO! ! !
Do we want our players learning how to win or lose? We can pull solid player from the draft, w/ DA in charge, 1st or 2nd round.
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Post by Celtic17 on Mar 7, 2006 18:42:48 GMT -5
Good to see ya Gblood! Hope all is well...
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Post by Roadrunner on Mar 7, 2006 23:29:49 GMT -5
I don't think the Celtics should tank the season, though I am equally opposed to playing P2 the entire game. Granted, one of the best players in the NBA, however a team wins a championship, not one player. Besides, our players are too inexperienced, and need games to develop.
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Post by mev17 on Mar 8, 2006 1:12:38 GMT -5
I disagree that we should "tank" the season or even sit most of our veterans and play only the young players. Our "core" needs to develop confidence with eachother and that only comes with playing together over time; we will not win more tomorrow by playing mostly our "B" team for the rest of the season.
I would, however, like to see Wally, Pierce and Raef be able to play fewer minutes, but that won't happen until AJ, Perk and West are healthy again.
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Post by BCHISTORIAN on Mar 8, 2006 1:37:50 GMT -5
this discussion is totally non-celtic imo: N E V E R T O T A N K ! ! !
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Post by FLCeltsFan on Mar 8, 2006 9:12:31 GMT -5
I never agree with tanking. Contrary to May's opinion, every good Celtics fan wants this team to win. It is against what this team is all about to even consider tanking. Doc is a competitor and would never knowingly give away a game. He has made mistakes coaching but I will never believe that he would knowingly do something that would lose a game. Every one of the players that is on this team is a fighter with heart. They never give up and play hard against all odds. Many teams with all the injuries and all that is going against us right now would just sit back and take it easy.... I love this team!!!!
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Post by eja117 on Mar 8, 2006 9:41:30 GMT -5
Wait wait wait. There's a big difference between "let's lose" and "let's play young guys". If you want the young guys to become winners some day you can't hide them from the game and think you are sending a good message. In fact the message is even worse. If you only play vets you are telling the young guys "If I play you we will lose because you are a loser and I have no faith in you. Just watch while I play Never-did-anything Raef, Old Man Pierce, and Gimpy Kneee Wally". That's not a culture of winning, Let's just say it's towards the end of a close game and Doc knows that someone like Vince Carter is going to get the ball. He knows Vince is going to do a certain move or two and Pierce could probably stop it and they could win the game. But he takes out Pierce and puts in GG. Vince does the move and wins the game against GG by one point. GG has learned a valuable lesson for the duration of his career about how not to lose a game in that situation and it is a lesson that can only be learned in that situation. I think putting a young guy into a pressure situation to gain experience is not setting up a culture of losing simply cause it results in losing. You didn't tell GG it's ok to lose. You put him in a learning situation. You can't become a team that wins without learning. You can't just learn to play during the middle of the season. The end of the season counts too and there's nothing wrong with exposing young guys to the game if it can be used positively.
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Post by greenblood on Mar 9, 2006 16:07:34 GMT -5
Of course, given that situation, Doc wouldn't tell GG to lose the game. But by putting him in the game in that critical situation, you are telling the rest of the team, and the fans not you have come to accept losing. Even though the learning experience for Green was present, and it may be valuable, losing is still losing. There should be no such thing as "moral victories". The most important lessons GG and the other youngsters should be learning is how to win close games at the end, and to never accept losing. Also, Gerald Green should have to prove he can defend under normal situations before he gets asked to defend a star player in crunch time. He should be studying how the veterans are getting it done, and try to emmulate that when he is the game. Now, I'm not saying Doc shouldn't play the kids because I believe he should. But playing them simply to gain draft position, especially in this draft makes no sense. Al is still getting minutes because he has earned them. Ryan Gomes plays heavy minutes because he's earned them, and because the team is successful with him on the floor. The same can be said about Delonte and Perk. I believe they can contribue now because they have all had to earn their minutes and prove they can be an asset to a good team. Last season Delonte, though injured, still had to learn behind Gary Payton, and Al had to sit and watch Raef, and Antoine, until he proved he could contribute in a positive way. This is why I have liked what Danny has done with all the young guys. The vets carry the team, and youngsters get brought along slowly and only are called upon when they are ready. Just throwing them into a fire does nothing except destroy their confidence and get to them to accept losing.
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Post by eja117 on Mar 9, 2006 16:53:24 GMT -5
Ok you have kind of talked me into it. Let me put it in a somewhat different way and let me offer a partial compromise.
I'm not saying for one second that they should play Scala a lot. Or Kandi. Or that they should give more minutes to Oriene than Delonte.
What I do think they may want to do is sit and think to themselves, "who would we want to try to develop? Who could use some minutes? Who would get good learning experiences from that? Who will probably be here in 4-6 years to help us win a championship?"
There are maybe some players who haven't "earned" a lot of minutes yet, but that I still think they may want to play, such as GG, Tony, Oriene, and Jones. And I think they should play more. And vets that won't be here in 4 years maybe should play less. Rest the knee. I don't think Raef is going to lead us to a championship. I don't even think he'll be much of a part of it. I think there is a chance in heck Jones might. I'm not even sure if PP or Wally will, but maybe GG will. So will this next draft pick I hope. So why play vets who have never done anything over an important part of our future?
I also don't think young guys learn as much by watching as playing. Look what happened when they gave minutes to Gomes. It didn't happen cause he watched a lot. It's cause they gave him minutes. And they gave him minutes even though he hadn't "earned" them. Well has Raef "earned" his minutes.
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Post by Roadrunner on Mar 11, 2006 23:49:09 GMT -5
I think not matter what, we are still going to get a borderline/middle of the road draft selection. However, I am interested in seeing how Danny can pull a player higher in the draft vs than later in the draft.
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Post by The Eye of the Q is upon you! on Mar 12, 2006 12:58:31 GMT -5
NTA - No tanking allowed ........................
Let the season playout with who we have and evaluate our needs after the season. The season was lost in December and January and injuries have set the team back - WAY BACK.
There still are 20 games to learn for next year. From what I can see the work ethic has picked up with the departure of Mark Blount - who really shafted us. RD was good but we already had Pierce. Banks did not pan out and after being a flash in the pan in Minnesota, I am seeing Marco Jaric playing in the 4th qtr. Justin Reed was basically replaced by Ryan Gomes. (Gee who would you rather have on your team - Gomes or Reed?).
Overall, I am seeing good progress. So no need to "tank." Play to learn how to pull out those close games. Admittedly the Celtics had a bad night against Milwaukee - but it is a matter of matchups and not having West and Perkins on the dance floor.
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