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Post by CelticsLoyalist on Jun 20, 2024 21:00:01 GMT -5
Yes Please! Thoughts?  |
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Post by eja117 on Jun 20, 2024 21:11:15 GMT -5
Yes Please! Thoughts? No ring. No Olympics. No college career. I got no. |
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Post by CelticsLoyalist on Jun 21, 2024 0:18:34 GMT -5
Many NBA players who are in the Hall of Fame have never won a championship ring, including:
Charles Barkley
11-time All-Star, 1993 MVP, and appeared in the 1993 NBA Finals, but lost out due to Michael Jordan's dominance at the time
Elgin Baylor
11-time All-Star and appeared in eight NBA Finals, but never won
Carmelo Anthony
10-time All-Star and the only player from the 2003 draft class to never win a ring
Other players
Reggie Miller, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Dominique Wilkins, and John Stockton are also Hall of Fame players who have never won a championship
Shawn Kemp?
Career history
1989–1997 Seattle SuperSonics
1997–2000 Cleveland Cavaliers
2000–2002 Portland Trail Blazers
2002–2003 Orlando Magic
6× NBA All-Star (1993–1998)
3× All-NBA Second Team (1994–1996)
McDonald's All-American (1988)
First-team Parade All-American (1988)
Second-team Parade All-American (1987)
Fourth-team Parade All-American (1986)
Gold Medal Summer Olympics (1994)
Kemp's career peaked in 1995–96, when he and Payton led the SuperSonics to a franchise-record 64 wins and their first NBA Finals appearance since 1979. They faced Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls, who were coming off an NBA record 72 wins. The SuperSonics pushed the heavily favored Bulls to six games before losing. In the Finals, Kemp posted per game averages of 23.3 points on 55% shooting from the field, 10.0 rebounds and two blocks. Shawn Kemp finished a close second in Finals MVP voting, almost becoming the second player to win the award despite being from the losing team
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Post by eja117 on Jun 21, 2024 7:09:28 GMT -5
This is actually getting pretty interesting. It turns out Kemp did not play in the summer Olympics in 1994. Nobody did. Because the Olympics were in 92 and then in 96. Rather it was the 1994 Fiba Summer games Kemp played in. Not only did he play in it, he was all tournament.
I looked at other players similar to him in scope. I came up with Penny Hardaway (not in the Hall) and Ben Wallace (in the Hall). And I admit. Better resume than Penny. Not as good as Ben.
He's right in that middle zone. So the question is does being an all star for over half a decade and a top ten guy for a third of a decade get you in? I think you need a little more than that. Like a solid college resume or a solid Olympic resume. He definitely has a solid Team USA resume. I think if he gets in it's close. But not only does he have no rings, he has no major awards. Not an All American like say Glenn Robinson. Not a defensive player of the year like Ben Wallace. Not a rookie of the year. Not a 6th man of the year. Not a finals MVP. Not an All Star game MVP.
If Tatum retired now I think he has a significantly stronger resume and I think Jaylen is close to stronger.
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Post by CelticsLoyalist on Jun 21, 2024 9:18:56 GMT -5
Well I think if you take into account his dominance at his position in his prime hard to argue his skills at an elite NBA level. That bulls series they very nearly came back down 3-0 and gave the bulls possibly their most comp that historic year for Chicago. That being said let's dive deeper into your similar players careers to Kemp:
Ben Wallace 4x All-Star, 1 title
Paul George
Chris Webber
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
Carlos Boozer
Kevin Love
Peja
Billy Cunningham - hall of Fame, 5x all-star. 1 title with Philly in his second year with a team that featured Wilt. I'd argue there are dozens more with less of a resume than Kemp but are hall of Fame due to their pro impact.
I would say Kemp and Barkley were the most feared PF matchups at their positions at that time in the L.
Does Kemp get snubbed over Billy Cunningham?
Or Ben Wallace who also doesn't have the HS or college stats or awards, had a 45% hall probability, never avgd 10/10. Barely had 3 season with 3 blks per, shot mostly under 50% career as a big with no outside. 40% FT shooting that makes shaq give an American Pycho "Ooo". Total career pts avg of less than 6 with playoff avgd barely better but still horrid FG/FT avgd for his size and position but is hall on pretty much his D and cuz he got 2 chips with a team that also had Rip, Prince, Billups, Sheed, Darko, Hubert Davis, Elden Campbell, Lindsey Hunter, and of course Mike James, and Bobby Sura.
Surely, Ben's 2 chips on a stacked team and overall stats and accomplishments do not get Ben in over Kemp and Surely not Billy Fricken Cunningham who managed 1 second year chip with Wilt and nothing else for the rest of his career
Kemp career highs
Points 42
Rebounds 22
Assists 12
Steals 7
Blocks 10
Oh and did I mention Reignman also had better Avgs, FG, FT and outside and way better rebounds? Oh and even a far superior playoffs career Avgs. And more playoff appearances?
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Post by eja117 on Jun 21, 2024 9:34:42 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_All-StarsThis is a pretty interesting list. Almost every player with 7 all star appearances are in. A few with 5 are in such as Tim Hardaway and Chris Mullin. Dennis Johnson. Chauncy Billups 6s are about 50/50. Where are we on Blake Griffin and Jermaine O'Neal? Jimmy Butler? Amare Stoudamire? How crazy is it that Pitino missed on Duncan in the lottery, missed on the consensus [HASH]2 guy (K Van Horn) STILL managed to draft a Hall of Famer, and yet traded him away? Coulda had Chauncy, Pierce, and Toine. But no.
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Post by CelticsLoyalist on Jun 21, 2024 9:39:45 GMT -5
For real. Making anti Pitino gifs back in the day may have been my first ever attempts at graphic design and the beginning of my photoshop skills hahaha!
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Post by CelticsLoyalist on Jun 21, 2024 9:47:15 GMT -5
Where are we on Blake Griffin and Jermaine O'Neal? Jimmy Butler? Amare Stoudamire? These are your best points so far in making the case or unmaking the case. Because if you let some in but not others who clearly had bigger impact on the game, then the bigger debate becomes is the Hall process flawed and a popularity contest with a "secret snub club" of former players etc who pull LeBron and Michael level clout and can influence who gets in and who doesn't ala Isaiah and the DreamTeam sitch. But honestly I don't think you can exclude Blake, or Jimmy. Amare is like Kemp to me and Jermaine never really had impact on the League and was lazy and unmotivated in my opinion, Kemp was surely not lazy and surely not unmotivated. He was a missing piece to a title on any other team in any other era where they don't have the practically back 2 back 6 time world title Bulls (might have been 8 in a row if Jordan doesn't retire). |
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Post by eja117 on Jun 21, 2024 10:05:51 GMT -5
I actually have to revise what I said. Most of the 6s are in. I think his lack of other hardware has held him back, but maybe it makes sense he's one of the last 6s to get in. Sorta the opposite of a first ballot guy. Last ballot guys deserve to get in.
He's definitely near the top of the list of "probably would have won one if not for MJ." Not the absolute top. He's in line after Barkley, Malone, and Stockton. He got closer than Mullin.
See Mullin a funny situation where you say "Well doesn't All tournament in the FIBA games equal or beat a low level Dream Teamer?" But this is the thing with Mullin. He ALSO has ANOTHER Olympic gold from being on that 84 team with MJ and Bobby Knight. Mullin also won the Wooden Award.
So is it fair to say he's basically the third best PF of the 90s? If he is then he's in. But if he's like 6th maybe he's not in. As far as I can see he does tend to be a top 3 or 4 PF for most of the 90s until the late 90s when KG and Duncan arrived on the scene.
It's an excellent question. Where does a top 4 position guy with absolutely zero hardware lie on this spectrum?
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Post by CelticsLoyalist on Jun 21, 2024 10:16:20 GMT -5
But not only does he have no rings, he has no major awards. Not an All American like say Glenn Robinson. Not a defensive player of the year like Ben Wallace. Not a rookie of the year. Not a 6th man of the year. Not a finals MVP. Not an All Star game MVP. Yes BUT!!!! Kemp was drafted in 89 17th pick. Outside of Tim Hardaway drafted at 14 there isn't a single player in that draft class you would pick over Kemp in hindsight. Heck, I would pick Kemp over Hardaway if I'm being honest. Also, that era was dominated already by Boston, LA, Detroit, and Chicago and Kemp and Seattle still were a force to be reckoned with making the case it wasn't the lack of skill or potential that ended up with Kemp ringless but moreso just the sheer numbers of talent which was the peak golden era for the NBA. A lot of players are ringless but are still elite hall of fame caliber players. I think having a title(s) is a major component of being HoF but its just one aspect that shouldnt make or break someone like Kemp. For frame of reference the top five that year were as follows: Pervis Ellison Danny Ferry Sean Elliot Glen Rice JR Reid Honorable mentions: Dana Barros Dino Radja (2nd Rd pick 40, Hall of Fame) Sherman Douglass Stacey King Cliff Robinson Vlade Divac Nick Anderson BJ Armstrong Mookie Blaylock |
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Post by CelticsLoyalist on Jun 21, 2024 10:18:01 GMT -5
I actually have to revise what I said. Most of the 6s are in. I think his lack of other hardware has held him back, but maybe it makes sense he's one of the last 6s to get in. Sorta the opposite of a first ballot guy. Last ballot guys deserve to get in. Super good Tommy Point here |
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Post by CelticsLoyalist on Jun 21, 2024 10:36:03 GMT -5
Another interesting item of note is that Wallace didn't even get Finals MVP Billups did.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jun 21, 2024 10:38:27 GMT -5
I tried thinking of this question like this -- if Jayson Tatum abruptly retired prior to Game 5 of the Finals (just for the sake of saying Tatum retired without a ring), would he be worthy of the Hall?
Like Kemp, he's made a handful of All-Star appearances, perennially is an All-NBA teamer, is considered one of his generation's best, made the Finals a couple of times -- but is it enough?
Probably not. And probably because his greatness wasn't long enough.
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Post by CelticsLoyalist on Jun 21, 2024 10:46:15 GMT -5
True, but also think of it this way, after Barkely and Malone in that era name another big man at the 4 who made a bigger impact on the game? Arguably until the KG/Duncan era when Kemp was just past prime, he was elite NBA and considered a superstar caliber player. Another point worth mentioning in recent times is his peers have been singing his praises and think he should be HoF. When you think of the most memorable matchups in Kemps time he held his own and then some.
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