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Post by jmost on Jan 25, 2022 7:50:06 GMT -5
I'm curious what everyone thinks about this. Until this year, I would have said that Brown has improved every year, and that Tatum has too, with the possible exception of a sophomore slump. The trend was consistently upward for both and my thinking was that we could reasonably hope for more of that. Maybe even count on it. Now I'm not so sure. Clearly both guys are capable of going off for big nights. But I am not seeing the consistency you want to see from a true superstar.
Do you think they've peaked, or is this season a hiccup and they'll keep improving as they enter their prime?
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jan 25, 2022 9:51:48 GMT -5
I'm curious what everyone thinks about this. Until this year, I would have said that Brown has improved every year, and that Tatum has too, with the possible exception of a sophomore slump. The trend was consistently upward for both and my thinking was that we could reasonably hope for more of that. Maybe even count on it. Now I'm not so sure. Clearly both guys are capable of going off for big nights. But I am not seeing the consistency you want to see from a true superstar. Do you think they've peaked, or is this season a hiccup and they'll keep improving as they enter their prime? Hard to say they've peaked because at 25 (Jaylen) and 23 (Tatum), they're still honing their skills. But I think I'd say, especially Tatum's game has stalled because he's trying to alter his game to be more of a fascilitator. Tatum's almost season long shooting slump has been his pitfall. If he was shooting near his career average percentages, he'd be having a great year.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 25, 2022 14:29:01 GMT -5
I think they are what they are to some extent. But improve each year in small ways. I think experience is a factor. The way the NBA is now players can kind of get away with playing the same way where they develop earlier and don't really improve as much as they used to but they still gain experience. I don't think they have peaked.
Smart is starting to hit his prime. Around 27-28 is when that usually happens. I like Smart as the pg and seem to be alone there I just think he needs some help and they could use another facilitator. Horford and Shroder are supposed to be that but we aren't really utilizing them like that. This team has not been together that long. Tatum and Brown are really getting their first real shot to be the guys. Last year sort of and it's been mediocre so far. I've seen real improvement over the last 10 games or so though. Tatum looked like he could score 70 last game. He couldn't have done that last year
I think talent wise they have peaked in ways. It's more about experience. But even physically around 27-28 is when players are fully grown. I don't expect Jordan and Pippen here like I said, but Tatum is a really good natural scorer and prototype 3 and Brown is a 2 and a good one. I think they can still grow. If they are anywhere close to that they can win multiple titles with the right pieces around them. I think that's what they are. They are close to that. If we get 3 titles and the Bulls had 6 call it reaching their potential. Much like the Lakers in the 80's and Celtics.
I thinK Jordan and PIppen are somewhat overrated that way anyways. They had help. They had all those shooters and Rodman and Kokoc and hustle guys. Guys like Barkley, Malone, etc didn't so much and had to go up against those great BUlls teams. even Durant for a spurt there. I don't think Tatum and Brown are even as good as them but they are close. George Gervin could have won titles imo with the right mix. He never had that at all. Dirk did and got there.
I'm not putting Tatum or Brown on any of those guys levels yet. But I think Tatum and Brown as natural scorers have shown they are around that level with guys like Pierce and Gervin, Paul George, Kawhi etc, etc.. I think they are more natural scorers which is a good thing or bad thing. It depends what they do with it.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 25, 2022 14:53:32 GMT -5
I think the media gets ahead of itself and just spews nonsense for the most part like I said. Because money and clicks and you have to read between the lines too. I'm much more patient with this team than that. I think the Celtics aren't a poor organization and I hope they realize this where it's more like who can we get to help these guys. What player would you target? It's that simple with me. I'd go target certain players that can help. I'm in the process of assembling a list on the fly really and haven't really delved into it other than what I wrote on the fly. I have a vision of what could work and what couldn't and some grasp of what is out there.
Having them improve in areas is one thing. Expecting them to be something they aren't is silly to me. They have improved their playmaking and their assists have gone up. To me if we have 5 guys on the floor who can all share the ball that's what we want. Or a 6th man where we can go Tatum, Brown, Williams, Smart. And have another guy come in who can share it and score it. Or a couple guys like that really one who can score and rebound or whatever.
Romeo is still developing and is alright but is not on the level of Derrick White for example. Keldon Johnson too. We need guys like that. Surround them with shooters and hustle guys. I don't think we want to necessarily over do it. Simmons and Sabonis are the same things to me. That might be overdoing it. AD is crazy. I don't want him.
Even if we end up like Pierce and Walker when they were at their height and had Kenny Anderson and whoever else. Marcus Morris was a player we had but I'd go younger than that and just keep building. I'd still be patient because I think this team is capable and believe in them. Some people just don't. Smart is right but he's also not right and i take offense because not everyone is like that. Bill Russell still believes in these guys I can tell you that.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 25, 2022 15:15:30 GMT -5
I think if we go that route we'd be more like the pistons really with Robert Williams. Tatum and Brown can score with White and Smart and Keldon Johnson. That's a really nice team. I don't know if we can get those guys but swapping Horford and Shroder and Romeo and Nesmith plus a couple 1st round picks to san antonio i would do in a heartbeat. It's an improvement. Sometimes to me it's more like it's the other way around. The media just keeps going one way and they aren't improving where I am.
SA may want to build around Murray and Poeltl and might want to clear cap before they have to pay guys to sign someone like Beal for all we know right now. It could work. I don't know if that is it. But I would be targetting certain players that can improve our team first and foremost vs blowing it up.
It doesn't ahve to be the end all be all either. I would still be in the stage of improvement though until proven otherwise. Even if we can get one or the other. It doesn't need to be both.
to me it's more a matter if the team is improving. Tatum is just practicing his shots out there to me. He's improving but the team is kind of floundering this year so far. His numbers are down somewhat but I think he's as capable of hitting a shot as he's always been. He's facing double and triple teams. Gaining experience... People are too focused on the individual. They aren't seeing what is really going on. Tatum is drawing more attention this year so his percentages are down slightly. The internet is seriously noise that way. I read it and these people are just making stuff up. They aren't as "inclusive" as they think either. They are the bullies.
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Post by jrmzt on Jan 26, 2022 0:12:21 GMT -5
Well here is an honest question worth asking..
What does Brown actually bring besides scoring?
Would you say he is a good rebounder for his position?
Is he a playmaker with court vision?
Is he a good defender?
I've seen plenty of shooting guards who can score but none really reach the highest tiers of stars based off scoring alone. Is Brown just a very good player ... kinda like Michael Redd was? In fact I don't even consider Bradley Beal to be a superstar. Some guys can score and it comes naturally to them. But that pretty much is the peak of their productivity.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Jan 26, 2022 3:49:36 GMT -5
I would say that Brown is a def a plus wing defender. He definitely isn't a natural playmaker/distributor.
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Post by jmost on Jan 26, 2022 7:31:42 GMT -5
Right, and I think he's probably an above average rebounder for his position too. What I'd love to see from him is consistency and better playmaking, but I'd settle for consistency in his scoring. He's averaging 24 PPG. I'd rather see 24 every night than 36 followed by 12. When Jaylen gets on a roll he can fill it up as well as anyone, but too often he's invisible for long stretches.
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Post by cf0022 on Jan 26, 2022 14:44:11 GMT -5
Tatum had a big night and Brown still was able to post nice games as well although i agree the playmaking needs to be consistant. Udoka has pretty much preached this from the beginning and is trying to do that. The playmaking between the two seems to still disapear at times. It shouldn't be like you go and now i go. I think Brown was still able to contribute in other ways but it's like they aren't fully connected. Against Sac the ball movement as a team was fantastic but it wasn't necessarily brown or tatum doing it. They were both still kind of out on an island. Lavine and Derozan play together better as it stands somewhat.
I think they are improving though. I've seen it over the last 10 games or so. They are playing pretty well together. We are 7-3.
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Post by jrmzt on Jan 26, 2022 22:36:41 GMT -5
Which tells me that Brown could become something of a Joe Johnson. A better rebounder than JJ but not as good a playmaker. However watching Brown's game, I can see plenty of iso Joe in him.
That isn't a knock at all, because Joe Johnson was one of the better SGs in the league during his prime. He obviously wasn't the best given that Kobe was around, but he rightly earned his All Star nominations.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jan 27, 2022 16:01:55 GMT -5
Jaylen is an athlete turned into a basketball player, and it's a testament to his work ethic.
What I don't see with Jaylen is natural instincts. Bird had it, Magic had it, Ja Morant has it, etc.
I think this is what prevents Jaylen from becoming a great player.
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Post by jrmzt on Jan 28, 2022 0:37:23 GMT -5
Hard to say that Jaylen doesnt have natural instincts when he has played it all his life. I do think he has some distractions and he is a really ambitious kid outside of basketball. Whether that carries over to the court...who knows. But there was early scouting reports that said teams were worried he would get bored of basketball to pursue his other passions.
Whereas with guys like Ja or Kobe or Giannis, you can see an actual visible violent hunger to dominate the league.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jan 28, 2022 1:01:40 GMT -5
Hard to say that Jaylen doesnt have natural instincts when he has played it all his life. I do think he has some distractions and he is a really ambitious kid outside of basketball. Whether that carries over to the court...who knows. But there was early scouting reports that said teams were worried he would get bored of basketball to pursue his other passions. Whereas with guys like Ja or Kobe or Giannis, you can see an actual visible violent hunger to dominate the league. Yup, Jaylen really poured himself into getting better. His handles were pretty bad, but now is no longer a weakness. I think early on, he did have too many other interests he pursued. But again, I feel he lacks instinctiveness, or at least the level it would take become a superstar.
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Post by jrmzt on Jan 29, 2022 21:51:14 GMT -5
Hard to say that Jaylen doesnt have natural instincts when he has played it all his life. I do think he has some distractions and he is a really ambitious kid outside of basketball. Whether that carries over to the court...who knows. But there was early scouting reports that said teams were worried he would get bored of basketball to pursue his other passions. Whereas with guys like Ja or Kobe or Giannis, you can see an actual visible violent hunger to dominate the league. Yup, Jaylen really poured himself into getting better. His handles were pretty bad, but now is no longer a weakness. I think early on, he did have too many other interests he pursued. But again, I feel he lacks instinctiveness, or at least the level it would take become a superstar. I kinda feel like Tatum is that way too. He wants to be like Kobe but that Mamba mentality is missing. He copies the moves but being a shadow isn't the same as landing the punch.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jan 30, 2022 19:07:39 GMT -5
Yup, Jaylen really poured himself into getting better. His handles were pretty bad, but now is no longer a weakness. I think early on, he did have too many other interests he pursued. But again, I feel he lacks instinctiveness, or at least the level it would take become a superstar. I kinda feel like Tatum is that way too. He wants to be like Kobe but that Mamba mentality is missing. He copies the moves but being a shadow isn't the same as landing the punch. I want Tatum to be more like Gianis. Learn to drive and use his long limbs to get the ball to the front of the rim.
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