Top 25 players of all time?

[cf0022]

I was thinking about this and I'd mix it up a bit.  

1. Magic Johnson - Jordan gets a lot of hype but I really feel that the Lakers in the 80's and the way they played was the most unstoppable force.   6'9" pg leading the break like Magic was, was as hard to stop as anything.  The 80's were the height of basketball to me as far as team play and talent level and the Lakers and Celtics had it all.  
2.  Bill Russell -  11 rings.  Bill Russell was more than just numbers.  They didn't even count the amount of blocks and steals he got back then.   I think his impact on the game and the Celtics is as great as his individual accomplishments.   It's a team game and it's about winning and the journey and everything else.  Russell is poetry to me like Jordan is to other people probably.
3/4.  Tie between Jordan and Bird.   I think Bird would have had more titles and been healthier had he not had to go up against the Lakers in the 80's which is the greatest team next to those oldschool celtics and maybe the bulls in the 90's.  GS had some runs too.  The Bulls couldn't beat either the Celtics or Lakers and came on later.   Look Jordan is great.  He sells tickets.  He's a great individual talent.  This is when star treatment started becoming a thing though and marketing became bigger than the game itself.  Bird was as crafty as Jordan would fly through the air.  
5. Wilt Chamberlain.  He completely dominated the game early on and was an olympic athlete like Russell and an extraordinary stat stuffer.   I think old school players the all time greats are all time greats regardless.  If you look at physical traits and olympic records and everything they are transcendent. There might be a small fraction of a second in time but they were also better and stronger at other things.
6.  Lebron James - It's tough rating James here.  I really don't know where to rate players today.  The game is more spread out.  There is no hand checking and more 3's, less of a contest in the paint.  The game now suits Lebron perfectly who basically blows past guys for easy dunks all day and relies on his size, speed and athleticism.  I think he would struggle in the old game.
7. Kobe Bryant - Probably the best scorer of all time next to Jordan.  Great all around players and defender and 1a player.  Not as good as Jordan.  Was always trying to be like Mike.  Almost was and was his own player.  Assortment of moves.  Smaller quicker version of Mike with an assortment of scoring moves and ability to score in traffic.  More erratic at the same time.
8. Tim Duncan - Underrated.  I really could put him ahead of Lebron but I feel like he gets his due here.  Just mr. fundamental and consistency and winning and great team system.  
9. Shaquille O'neal - Freak of Nature.  Probbaly the closest thing to Chamberlain we've seen.  There are other great big men even now but Shaq was out of this world.
10. Kareem Abdul Jabaar- Tough ranking him here but  I don't know where else to put him.   All time leading scorer.   Lanky freak.
11. Steph Curry - Greatest shooter of all time?  I still say it's Bird.   Most range and volume and ability to hit shots and very good all around game.  Steph is the man.
12. Durant - I put him ahead of Oscar I think.  Lebron and Durant are it now.
13, Hakeem Olajuwan - Scared Mike into playing baseball.  I might flip flop Hakeem and Durant.
14. Oscar Robertson-I never really got to see him play but I'll put him here.  I may be underrating the big O.
15. Kevin Garnett - Timeless.   His energy and ability to defend all over the court was his most impressive attribute and as a leader. Giannis may surpass him when he's done.   May not be the leader Garnett was or defender.
16. Jerry West - Was Steph before steph.
17. Charles Barkley- Amazing offensive player and rebounder.  The round mound of rebound was great
18. Allen Iverson - He deserves it
19. Giannis  Antetokounmpo - Top 20 may be overrating him.  But he is getting there.
20. Chris Paul - Amazing point guard
21. Karl Malone - Prototype power forward
22. Dirk Nowitski - Complete player and scorer
23. Jokic -amazingly efficient
24. Doncic
25. Embiid


Those are all my 1a's I guess.  After would be guys like Dwade, Kawhi, Havlickek, Pierce, Pippen, Paul George, Elgin Baylor, Dominique, Rodman, Vince Carter., Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Klay, Draymond etc..    Stockton, Nash, Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton,  Cousy, Harden, Westbrook, Kidd,   Kyrie,  Lamelo Ball., Penny Hardaway for point guards.    Patrick Ewing, Moses Malone, Bob Petit I probably underrate, Anthony Davis, Mchale, Mutombo, Gobert, Parish, Chris Bosh.  Does Webber really belong in the hall of fame?  I'm sure I'm missing some big men somewhere.  There are some really good big men in the league right now.  I could really do a top 50.     I'm probably overrating Doncic and Embiid as it stands but on pure upside I don't know.

I also forgot Dr. J.  He really should be in there over Doncic as it stands.  Both him and Oscar Robertson were really Jordan before Jordan.    Am I overrating Jerry West?   My Mount Rushmore still is Magic, Jordan, Bird, Russell and Chamberlain.  Screw Lebron unless he wants to play center or power forward.

[cf0022]

Just because I'm truly bored with the Celtics right now my next 25 would go something like this. Ewing, Dr J really should be top 25 over Doncic and Embiid right this second.

26. Dr. J
27. Ewing
28. Dwade
29. David Robinson
30. Stockton
31. Nash
32. Anthony Davis
33. Kawhi Leonard
34. Paul Pierce
35. Isiah Thomas
36. Havlicek
37. Gary Payton
38. Moses Malone
39. Scottie Pippen
40. Mchale
41. Cousy
42. Jason Kidd
43. Mutombo
44. Chris Bosh
45. Paul George
46. Baylor
47. Rodman
48. Gobert
49. Parish
50. Ray Allen
51. Reggie Miller

51. Harden
52. Westbrook
53. Bradley Beal
54. Vince Carter
55. Kyrie Irving
56. Lamelo Ball
56. Chris Webber
58. Penny Hardaway
59. Yao Ming
60. Arvidis Sabonis
61. Dennis Johnson/Kevin Johnson/Shawn Kemp/Draymond/Klay/Devin Booker etc....  Guys like Tatum and Brown are down here somewhere amongst the rubble too.  I also forgot Pau Gasol, George Gervin and Clyde Drexler who should be up there with Paul George.   James Worthy.   Dominique.   Too many players.  Really guys like Rasheed Wallace, Billups were all great at one point.  Ben Wallace.   Shawn Marion.  Rip Hamilton.  Doc Rivers.  Ginobi.  Tony Parker.  Zach Randolph had some monster years.   So did Aldridge.  Marc Gasol.   Morant and some of the young guys coming up now are in this range and can move up potentially.

I wish kids these days and the hype machine would stop rating Kobe and Lebron their top 5 with players that have only played in the last 20 something years.  The NBA has been around longer than that.    It's always Kobe, Lebron, Jordan, Steph, Durant blah, blah, blah..  Their basketball intelligence does not have scope. TNT and ESPN are awful this way how they pander.  Talk radio is just as bad.  I was listening to a guy who was clearly a shock jock tryign to ruffle peoples feathers on ANthony Davis how terrible he is and how he's not a top 5 player.  He's probably 6th in the league right now and having a very good year which is absurd.  But what the media says for ratings pandering and actual truth are usually different.

[freshnthehouse]

Jordan is my [HASH]1. Bird is probably my [HASH]2. Then it gets hard. It would prolly be Russ/Kareem/Lebron/Wilt in some order. the rest of my top 14 would be the same guys as yours, im just not sure of the order. I think I'd sneak Jerry West ahead of KG for the 15th spot. It's tough to figure out where to put someone like Bob Pettit. Dude was an absolute monster, but he played so long ago. It's hard to compare him to the modern players. Same thing with Elgin Baylor.

[cf0022]

I also forgot Dwight Howard. Prime Howard deserves to be top 40 ahead of Anthony Davis. Guys like Gervin, Drexler, Dominique are around Paul Georges level. Same with Worthy. Maybe a little better but not quite that 1a guy. Great physical tools. Pierce I have rated higher because he had "intangibles" as far as his clutch factor and really could take it to Lebron on his own.

Tatum is really around guys like Gervin or Paul George imo and not quite even at that level yet. He still has to grow but that's his upside. He could be much better depending on the system they employ if that is even possible in the NBA these days. I could see Tatum being very successful in the right system like Lavine and Derozan are doing in chicago now. Tatum and Brown could be a better version of that.  Tatum and Brown are more Detleff Schrempf and Chuck Persons at this point.

I'll have to edit that but put Dwight Howard ahead of Anthony Davis.  After Giannis, Dirk and Jokic.     Gervin, Drexler, Dominique and Worthy are somewhere between Pierce and Pippen and Paul George, Baylor or around that level.  Howard has had a weird career but prime Howard > Anthony Davis so far.   He's in that range of Gary Payton.  > Pierce in his prime too.

[jrmzt]

Kinda tough to rate this, but just going by top 5 I'd have:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Lebron
4. Magic
5. Bird

I found it hard to give it to Russell or Wilt because neither really brought something that stood out besides being overwhelmingly physically superior. Where Kareem had the skyhook, Magic as magician playmaker, Bird as a 3-level scorer, etc. I couldn't see what made Russell or Wilt special besides statistical numbers and winning.

[jrmzt]

I mean what if instead you ranked players by category?

Best Scorer
Best Defender
Best Shooter
Best Rebounder
Best Blocker
Best Stealer

Because when you start to categorize things, I'd actually argue that Rodman could outrebound Russell or Chamberlain.

Then when we talk about blocks, I'd say Hakeem is the best as he played in an era of true big men like Shaq and Robinson and Ewing and still stood out as an elite blocker.

As a scorer, noone matched Jordan's intensity and ability to take contact and still finish. Yes, Kareem is the alltime leader but I wouldn't trust ANY player more than Jordan to score when I need points.


Anyway I guess I'm trying to say that if we did the eye test across generations of players, it would put several historic names lower on my list.

[cf0022]

Best scorer would be Jordan followed by Kobe. Shaq as a scorer has to be up there too imo. Underrated just because of his size but really difficult to stop. He was an instant bucket. I don't downgrade guys that much because of their physical attributes.  Obviously Kareem with the skyhook.  But best scorer was probably Jordan how he could score in a variety of ways.

The issue with the defender, rebounder, blocker. I'd rate Russell [HASH]1 in all of those. I think Russell was the opposite of what you are saying where he was a combination of physical attributes and skill much like Jordan really just more on the defensive end and within the team. Best stealer is tough. Dwade was always really good at stealing the ball but there are players like the glove. Jordan himself was very good at stealing the ball and timing it.

I also think Russell brought intangibles which is why i rate him so high more so than stats or physical attributes. The whole celtics mystique and way of life was guys like Russell and Red Auerbach.  That basically transcended time and lead them to win for decades along with talent obviously. But the celtics mystique was a real thing. I don't think it exists so much today. But it did through the 80's and even into the 90's and 2000's it was still there even though the team was not good.

Russell if I watch him i notice those things just how fundamentally sound he was but there were also intangibles there how he would rebound the ball and outlet it and clear space. The way he would block shots too and time his blocks where he would block shots to his own teammates and start the fast break that way. Guys like Mutombo and Hakeem would use their length to intimidate and send a message. But Russell was even crazier imo. He would  lean into players and play between where you didn't what what he was going to do. You don't see Centers do that so much anymore how he would play in space. Rodman was crazy too. Rodman had a motor on defense and would do similar things where he would psych the offensive player out. But there was more aggression. Russell was more graceful. Both had both but Rodman I would say leaned more into being psychotic and aggressive. Where Russell was too probably but more graceful and intelligent.

BOth Rodman and Russell would psych guys into thinking he was there when he wasn't and they would miss shots.  Probably sounds lke a hill of beans and stuff of legends and players back then it was different.  Maybe not as athletic but players were still tough and built and athletic back then.  HE would have teams running scared when he wasn't even doing anything.

Jordan changed the entire game too as far as marketing and everything else.  So did Russell though but it was more the celtics.  He still changed how the game was played but on a smaller level.  But it was just as powerful.  I prefer Russell over Jordan just because I feel he was more a team player.  Jordan was more about espn and marketing and scoring and stuff i don't like as much.   Russell and Chamberlain that whole thing was the league and marketing.

Mutombo and Chamberlain to me are more what you are talking about and just massive guys.  Skilled too though.   Don't say Chamberlain was not skilled.  He was skilled.  So was MUtombo.  Shaq too.  Shaq would get bored because he wouldn't be able to use his skills in games and would just use the same moves over and over.

The entire reason I have Magic rated [HASH]1 is because JOrdan couldn't stop that.   I don't think anyone could stop that.  The lakers fast break in the 80's was probably the most dangerous form of offensive basketball.  The way Magic ran the fast break and it was him who created that.  Without him the lakers would not have been that.  It wasn't one guy no but Jordan could not stop that.  So how is Jordan better?  He may have been a better individual player. but at the same time he's really not because he's commanding the ball in a way that is somewhat of a detriment.  Even the celtics fast break before that. It's why I have russell 2.  Because the celtics fast break and the way they would play defense.  I think Russell is the best defensive player because he would start the fast break that way.


It's like EMmitt SMith to Barry Sanders to me.  Yeah Emmitt had that offensive line but they would not have been that without Emmitt.  That same line was still there the year before but they had no pro bowlers.  Suddenly Emmitt is there and they have pro bowlers all over.   No he wasn't as flashy as Barry but the way he ran the ball.  Barry was dancing around int he backfield.  JOrdan wasn't really that.  He was a fantastic wing player and defender and scorer and individual player and team player.   Narcissistic team player and self motivated.   But again style of play.  Magic couldnt leap like Jordan but he was 6'9 and could create in other ways and shoot over guys too.  Bird was the same thing.  He was 6'9 a better rebounder than Jordan and scrappy and intelligent.  Not as physically gifted in other ways as far as dunking and flying through the air, but it's how you look at it.  Russell was like Jordan on defense where he would fly through the air and outlet the ball and run the floor.  David Robinson would do that too but was more stiff and a lob catcher than Russell.  Russell was increbibly fluid and intelligent in the halfcourt and everything else how he would share the ball.  He didn't need to score 30 points a game.  He scored around 15.  He could have scored 30 points a game if he wanted to but that was not the way to win games.


That has always driven me nuts though.  People say Russell best team player.  JOrdan best individual player.  But it's a team game.  JOrdan could not beat what Russell and Magic were doing.  Much like Barry Sanders could not beat what Emmitt SMith was doing.   Or Mahomes can't beat what Tom Brady is doing.  It's also why i don't like espn.  They hype certain things for ratings.  And I'm not saying Barry and Jordan or even Lebron isn't great.  I just think there was better that get overlooked.  Brady doesn't get the same respect from espn either.  He's considered a system player but has proven that to be not the case going to tampa and doing what he did.  Yeah he's a system player.  he would be the first to say that but again he understands that which makes him better.  People use that as a knock against him and he proved that these people are not that bright.  He is the system.  What other player could go to tampa and wasn't even a playoff team and turn them into a super bowl team overnight.  Emmitt did the same thing in Dallas.  Russell came into a good situation witht he celtics but they couldn't win a ring before he got there and ran off 11 rings.  Magic and Bird had to face each other.  I still say Bird is on par with Jordan for the same reasons.  Bird would have been Jordan int he 80's if it wasn't for Magic. He was more scrappy and a shooter and playmaker than Jordan.  Jordan needed Pippen as his playmaker.  Much like Bird needed Mchale and Parish inside.

Wing players get a lot of hype because they can do a lot of different things scoring etc..  Espn loves that stuff.  PG and centers are different but at the center of attack. Pick your poison i guess.  Lebron is like a hybrid Jordan/Magic where he's ended up like Chamberlain where he has struggled to win championships.   Magic would come at you like a steamroller though twisting and turning and faking his way through traffic and involve the team.  I think offensively that's hard to stop.  Russell was that on defense.   Jordan and Bird are more a like but polar opposites at the same time.  It doesn't matter how you do it really but apparently it does.  Because people hype JOrdan like he is the best period and I don't really agree.  I think it's more people grew up during that era and espn and it's what people are sold and it's the easy thing to do which probably has some truth to it.  Brady himself isn't doing much differnet and is making the easy play look easy.  Magic too.  Magic was a showman but again he was making it look easy.  Much like Jordan.  Or Joe Montana or whoever.  I think all time greats are just all time greats in that regard. 

I don't really see it that way like Jordan is the undisputed best .  Or Lebron.  I think all time greats are just all time greats.   There probably is a way to determine who was best. But again Lebron and Jordan are overrated in that regard.  I think Magic would serve Jordan up on a platter and basically did during his prime.  When Jordan finally beat him Magic was old and that team was not showtime anymore.  They were old and slow.  Not to say Mahomes can't beat Brady either.  Whether he has that in him to take it to that level and beat Brady in his prime i would never say he can't.  Whether he will I don't know at this point.  He can but he has to execute better and play smarter and not rely on his athleticism so much. JOhn Elway had to do that before he won.  If the media had their way Brady wouldn't even be mentioned and Mahomes would be the best not even winning.   Brady has shut those people up a bit by winning time and time again and has had to do that which is ridiculous.   The year the pats beat the rams which started Brady's run.  The greatest show on turf was considered unbeatable.  Wilt Chamberlain was considered unbeatable and the best.  David and Goliath.  The way the game is some of these guys are so talented they overplay the game and their team.  It's like hoosiers where the basket is still 10 feet regardless.  All time greats are all time greats.  Brady is poetry to me for the same reasons because his feel for the game and grace is unparallelled even during deflategate which was funny.  I swear myself it was totally unintentional and a cold day and the balls deflated past their recommended level and it was probably so close sometimes Brady didn't even know.  And he had a target on his back by people trying to make a fool out of him.  That's really what happened.

[jrmzt]

Again its tough with Russell because he wasn't rebounding against the giants that Rodman had to rebound against. Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, Shaq...Rodman was outrebounding all of them.

For me Russell is top [HASH]5 in many of those categories but not the best to have ever done it. Its still not a mark against him because he is still a top [HASH]10 player for me, but definitely not a top [HASH]5.

Its all down to what is a top player. Is it based on the impact they had? Raw stats? Overwhelming superiority in their era? Otherwise it is all gut feeling and preference.

[cf0022]

I wish there was a player today who plays like Russell to compare who was more athletic and as intelligent. Giannis is probably the closest how he plays defense and plays in space and can guard multiple guys at once. That was difference between Russell and a guy like Mutombo though is Mutombo would more just sit back and use his size and length where Russell would more play in space and be guarding multiple guys at once from the center spot where he would lean at the shooter and if he passed it over the top he would lean back and steal the ball or block the shot if the shooter shot it.

Giannis is a superior athlete to Bill Russell and more a modern day player where he hogs the ball a bit and will lead the break like magic and pass it especially early in his career when he was playing point guard. Russell and the celtics fast break was more about not letting the ball touch the ground but cousy would stop that from happening himself. Russell would outlet to cousy and cousy would do his magic and russell would run the floor.

There really isn't a player today to compare him too. There are centers who play like him at times. In todays NBA Russell might get overshadowed but he was very intelligent and ahead of his time.  I wish the game today was played more like that.

I think Russell is an all time great regardless. If he played today he wouldn't let himself be overshadowed like that because just who he was and his mindset.  It was Bill's way or the highway.  I love that video there is when he first met Cousy and they talked and Cousy was like I hear you are a pretty good rebounder.  And Russell was like yeah.  And they talked and decided that Russell would rebound the ball and outlet it to Cooz.  Russell felt he was the best player and that they should win every game. "Red's theory was 10 players, two baskets, 13,000 people, one basketball--and we will decide what is done with that one basketball."  That whole sense of we basically started right there.  That's the thing too is Bill's way was about the team first and foremost for his own success.

The game today is almost the opposite of that.   Michael Jordan really changed that too with all the players coming in wanting to be like Mike.  It's more my success is your success which I'm not sure is always true.  Vs your success is my success.  Russell was pretty smart.  The Celtics were pretty greedy in their own way back then.  11 rings.

There are different ways to do that even still.  I will say if you had 5 michael jordans and could get them all playing together and reading and reacting like that that would be pretty unstoppable.  There isn't the same psychology in the game today.  You have 5 guys all playing kind of positionless but they don't really do all the little things like that.

[cf0022]

I think like you say it comes down to preference. I think players today are better athletes for sure in ways. But their bodies are not as mature in others. I don't think basketball is as much a thinking man's game. Russell was a thinking type of player but would be an old man out there today. Red Auerbach and his cigars. I don't know about smart health wise. But it was more a thinking man's game. Bird threw out his back.

Guys back then were great athletes too but in different ways. They were playing in adverse conditions and work different jobs and everything else. Wilt Chamberlain was a prime example of that. If you look at olympic records it's like that too. Some records have been clearly broken. Like sprinting and all of that athletes now are just a tick faster or jump a tick higher. But other events like some strength events the field was actually stronger in the 50's and 60's.

Nowadays a lot of athletes their soul purpose is to break the record in that event now.   Back then guys were coming out of working on farms who were just naturally strong people.

Usain Bolt is faster than Carl Lewis for example.  Carl Lewis would be a tick slower and more part of the field now.  It's not a huge difference though.    Usain Bolt is also one guy.  In the 80's it was Carl Lewis and the field was a tick slower than him.  Most events like that olympic athletes have just gotten faster over time.  If you look at certain weight  lifting events it's not like that though.  They might be able to lift more but the reps for example are not necessarily like that.  Stamina is not something that has improved as much.

Lebron getting worn out the first time he had to face San Antonio in the finals is telling because he was not used to playing in adverse conditions.  Human beings build up immunities in different ways.    Players in the 80's if you look at guys like Bird and Mchale were not exactly health freaks.  But had certain immunities.  It caught up to them eventually.