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Post by FLCeltsFan on Dec 31, 2005 11:59:35 GMT -5
Peter Vecsey was on NBATV last night and said his sources are telling him that Ainge is shopping Pierce, Davis, Blount (he mentioned them specifically) and basically all his veterans. Said he wants to free up even more time for the kids. Said Raef and Blount are playing just well enough to make it tough to play Jefferson more minutes. I don't agree with that because Raef and Blount are soft and play little defense... they give us offense but are way too soft on defense. Perk and Al give us an inside presence that we need. Vecsey said Ainge offered Blount to the Bulls for Othella Harrington and Eric Piatkowski both of whom have expiring contracts, but the Bulls turned it down because they want to maintain their cap space going into this summer. Vescey said that Ainge is shopping the vets and hoping to find more young players.... I don't know how much of Vescey's chatter to believe as he has been out in left field some times and right on others.
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Post by The Eye of the Q is upon you! on Dec 31, 2005 13:17:45 GMT -5
Don't believe anything Vecsey says. I know it would be a serious mistake to trade Pierce (unless Pierce and Blount for Kevin Garnett). See my post on "These are the times..."
I believe RD and Blount are being shopped. I believe that RD and Raef to Indiana for Artest and Croshere was pitched to Larry Bird.
The idea of freeing up more time for the kids so they can take over the operation in 2007 is an excellent idea.
But the Celtics problems could easily be solved if they can get some solid role players to do the dirty work. Raef did some dirty work last night in Sacto. He and Pierce must stay and impart the Kansas work ethic on the kids (OK, I reached for that one). So I would put RD, Veal, and Blonut on the blocks.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2005 18:16:27 GMT -5
Pierce shouldn't be dealt unless he demands a trade or becomes nuisance to this franchise. Other than that it would not be wise to get rid of him because the market wouldn't match the talent being offered out there especially if he wants to join a specific team. Unless we're getting an all-star in return or lottery pick (+ adquate role players/sub-par stars) I would not expect him to go anywhere.
I'm not so sure if I would give up RD. He has gone beyond my expectations and has shown to be a very good p layer in this league. In fact, I might go on a stretch and say I would rather trade away Gerald Green if we're receiving non-protected picks in return.
Blount needs to go in order to make room for future cap space along with Lafrentz. Difficult part about this is there absurd contract they're receiving right now. That's why we'll have players like Pierce, RD, and Green being showcase so we can relieve ourselves from these contracts.
I wouldn't rule that Vecsey sources aren't true becuz it's not like we haven't heard about this before. It's pretty much old news being restated again.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Dec 31, 2005 20:56:14 GMT -5
I guess I'm not way off from the way Ainge is thinking. I do believe Vecsey has sources who tell him inside information, but what happens is that he reveals things about the very front end of conversations that go on between teams, and lot of times, the front end information evolves into other players, or totally dissolves.
I wouldn't doubt that Ainge has been talking to teams about trading away his veteran players, including Pierce. I'm sure he's been feeling what Pierce's value is around the league since he got here.
I believe Ainge is looking to trade away his veterans, including Pierce, because none of his players his was able to draft (which we are all pretty stoked about) are getting any significant playing time to develop into anything special in 3 years. Of the players he's drafted, only Delonte gets significant playing time. But if the veterans are traded away, they will certainly get the playing time they need to develop their potential.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Jan 1, 2006 4:02:45 GMT -5
If we end up getting rid of either Blount or (fingers-crossed)Raef, all the minutes these two yahoos have been playing will be somewhat justified. I think moving one of these two is the one move DA has to make. A big man rotation of Blout or Raef/AL/Perk would mean plenty of minutes for the kiddies.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jan 1, 2006 6:39:40 GMT -5
Blount and Raef are only half the battle, though. Pierce and Ricky crowd what is arguably are deepest and most talented position: the wing spots.
In FL12's original post, Ainge is looking to trim down payroll as well (which ties in to my conspiracy theory that Rivers is not playing Perk and Big Al a lot of minutes so that he can have leverage on his side when its time to dish out new contracts). Pierce makes max money and Raef makes near max money. This could play into factor in whom Ainge looks to trade.
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Post by Ossric on Jan 1, 2006 11:45:35 GMT -5
Blount and Raef are only half the battle, though. Pierce and Ricky crowd what is arguably are deepest and most talented position: the wing spots. In FL12's original post, Ainge is looking to trim down payroll as well (which ties in to my conspiracy theory that Rivers is not playing Perk and Big Al a lot of minutes so that he can have leverage on his side when its time to dish out new contracts). Pierce makes max money and Raef makes near max money. This could play into factor in whom Ainge looks to trade. just wanted to point out that our wing positions aren't as talented as you think without PP & Ricky. Allen hasn't played in a long team & has legal issues. He hasn't shown that he's star potential, just a good player. GG hasn't gotten out of his dipers yet, so i'm not willing to put Celtic future in his hands yet. Who else do we have at the wing? Reed, Gomes.... no thank you. Besides Ricky IS one of the young guys, he's still only 24 i believe plus his salary is probably the best in the league (rookie contracts not included). The only contracts that are strangling this organization from improving their roster is Raef, Blonut & even Baker (although he doesn't count against the cap anymore, we still have to pay him the money). Those 3 non productive assets count for 22 million of the total salary load. as long as so much money is spend in black holes, we'll never be competitive with the big boys.
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Post by esco33 on Jan 1, 2006 12:03:19 GMT -5
I really cannot see Ainge trading away our best player right now in Pierce. That would be a rash move...very rash. I can however see him trading anyone on our roster not named (Pierce, Jefferson, Perkins, Green, West) And even then, if a good enough deal came along, I could see him parting ways with Perkins or West though I think he will let them develop more since they have shown great strides this season.
More than likely, the veterans that Ainge will possibly deal are probably Blount and Raef packaged with some of our young talent/draft picks. No one will take these guys alone, with their contracts. This is a deal I can definitely see happening to clear cap space, and maybe bring in an expiring contract or two.
The deal I see happening is some combination of these players Blount/Raef/Scalabrini/Marcus Banks/Tony Allen/Justin Reed/draft picks first round and/or second round. Although if they are SET on rebuilding they obviously will not want to give up the draft picks. I am not for rebuilding. I thought we were rebuilding. That is why we let go of Toine and Payton and signed Scal and Dickau.
Anyway...
Maybe that is why they haven't been playing Allen lately for fear he may reinjure the knee therefore jeapordizing any potential deal. But to me the longer he sits, the lower his trade value gets.
Personally, I am not for the idea of rebuilding, but yet retooling. We have a good core of players. We just need to build around them, namely Paul and Ricky and we need to DEVELOP the players in which we have (Big AL, Perkins, West, Green, Gomes), and then everyone can see what we actually have or do not have. Right now we do not know.
Hopefully this is what Ainge has in mind too, and not the mentality of "blowing up the whole team".
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Post by FLCeltsFan on Jan 1, 2006 13:37:00 GMT -5
To add to this, here is a piece from today's NY Post by Vescey:
Vescey did report that Walker trade way ahead of time and it was denied right up until it happened. He also reported a couple of other rumors that had been denied up until recently. He does have some credibility although like has been said, he often reports on things that are just being discussed but never come to fruition.
There is a piece in today's Globe by Danny saying that moves have to be made so this kind of backs it up.
Seems like Danny is ready to make a move so hopefully Raef and or Blount will be playing elsewhere soon. Although Raef has been really hustling lately and I would rather see Blount go than Raef if I had the choice. PP and Blount are the only 2 players that Danny didn't choose or draft. He may move PP if the right deal comes around to make this team completely his. Will be interesting to see how the next couple of months play out for this team. If they continue playing like they did last night, He may make a minor change but not a major one. If they keep being so inconsistent I expect a major trade.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jan 1, 2006 17:50:42 GMT -5
Oss, I'm sure that Ainge won't trade both Pierce and Ricky away. But I'm thinking one of them will have to be moved. And if you weigh the options of who's a better fit for this team, and not base your opinion on who's the better player (of course Pierce is), then you may see the reasoning of why Ainge may move Pierce before moving Ricky (see FL12's latest Vescey comments).
Ricky is cheaper and is a better player in an uptempo style/moving offense because he moves around the court much better to get open for shots and because he's a guy who likes to get out in the breaks. He also makes a lot less money than Pierce, and this may be a bigger factor than the first one.
Pierce is a much better player than Ricky, and I think Ricky has a few flaws in his game. But if we are going to construct a team that utlizes more ball movement and a lot of people scoring, and a team that has the financial freedom to go after key free agents, Ricky appears to be the better fit.
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Post by Roadrunner on Jan 1, 2006 22:46:10 GMT -5
Blount/Raef are not going anywhere unless they are packaged. No team would want either one of them, rather for attitude, or contract reasons. Allen, though an up and coming player, he "violated" the code of conduct, and will soon be on gonzo.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jan 1, 2006 23:17:14 GMT -5
Blount/Raef are not going anywhere unless they are packaged. No team would want either one of them, rather for attitude, or contract reasons. Allen, though an up and coming player, he "violated" the code of conduct, and will soon be on gonzo. Yes, it is going to be difficult to move either one, though I think Raef will be tougher due to his uglier contract. Blount's value is as high as it has ever been. If we can't move him now for a good return, we may never get a good return for him, period.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jan 2, 2006 4:17:59 GMT -5
Oh, and for those of you who may have missed this one, here's one from Peter May in yesterday's paper:
This is an easy one. He should keep doing what he's doing. He's playing the best all-around basketball of his career at a time when the Celtics may have no choice but to move him. Maintain that value. Despite what you hear and read from the Celtics, there is a multitude of NBA observers outside Boston that would be shocked if Pierce isn't moved this year.
All this media attention that's been sturring up may be hindering Ainge's leverage. If teams know what Ainge is intending to do, they'll play hardball and ask for some of our better young players.
If I'm Ainge, I'd see if we can make another trade with Mike Kupchak. The Fakers haven't been playing all that well (just a few games over .500) and are still looking for a Center (Kwame is looking alright, Mihm has been inconsistent, and Slava Medvedenko has been let go). Brian Cook is showing incredible shooting touch from 17 feet and out, but he looks more like a PF than a Center. Maybe Blount could be enticing to them.
I hear that Lamar is not getting along with Kobe (apparently, there was an altercation in practice between the two of them). Odom has a hefty contract, so swapping Blount for him (others will have to be involved) may work.
Maybe a Pierce to Golden State may work out too. I don't know if we'll be able to pry away Ike Diogu (whom I would really want in a Celtics uni--finally getting a guy to replace my wish for Sofoklis Shortsianitis ;D). But for Pierce, maybe we can get Jason Richardson and Troy Murphy (though we may have to add in Banks--but they'd have to throw in a draft pick).
I'm sure Pierce would love to be back home and playing alongside his long time friend, Baron Davis. And on our side, getting Richardson would be a nice return. He's not a star of Pierce's caliber, but he's definitely one of the better wing players in the league. Fabulous athleticism, a solid shooting stroke (which needs to be polished more), and aggressiveness. He fits in better with a slashing motion offense than Pierce. And if we can get Troy Murphy, he'll be the player we wanted Brian Scalabrine to be--a tough nosed rebounder/banger who can score from midrange.
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Post by The Eye of the Q is upon you! on Jan 2, 2006 12:20:32 GMT -5
Role Players and Stars we need:
Trading Pierce and Blount to Golden State for Foyle, Troy Murphy and Jason Richardson plus their No 1 sounds like a crummy idea to me.
We need a play-making PG........
Tony Allen's problems stink for us because he was the impact player to replace Pierce and RD. Now he is on the outside looking in. His problems have been flying under the radar.
We still don't have that kick butt PG like Nash, Kidd, and Tony Parker.
We still don't have the stopping Center to upgrade from Blount/Raef/Perkins. That is a draft priority this year or next (Oden). To get Oden means tanking not only this year but next year as well and have better luck than the 1997 draft that saw our 40% chance of getting Tim Duncan go to San Antonio. So I think that is a terrible solution for the Celtics.
Trading for Portland's Theo Ratliffe or Sacremento's Brad Miller for Boston's Blount and Gerald Green makes us better today but what about tomorrow.
Here is a radical idea - Do not make any trades and let the Celtics solve their own problems of poor defense, rebounding, and turnovers internally. The talent is here to play very good basketball in 2006 and beyond. Trading Pierce, RD, Blount, and Raef will probably set this program back even further. Give Tony Allen another chance.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jan 2, 2006 13:29:28 GMT -5
The problem is sticking with what we have. If we stick with what we have, none of our young players will develop into their potential, stunting their growth significantly. If Pierce only got 15 - 20 minutes a game his 1st 3 years in the league, he would not have been a 25 ppg scorer by his 3rd year (Pierce actually got 34 minutes per game as a rookie, the lowest so far in his 8 year career).
If we are going to stick with Pierce and Ricky, trade away Gerald Green because he's certainly not going to get 35+ minutes a game it'll take for him to reach his potential in 3 - 5 years. Stick with Ryan Gomes, who's much closer to reaching his potential (but of course, his ceiling is not as high as Gerald's).
We have 9 young players on the team:
PG's: Delonte, Banks, Orien Wings: Gerald, Allen, Gomes, Reed Bigs: Jefferson, Perkins
These guys, as young as they are, have a lot of game, and the only way to maximize their potential is to give them tons of minutes. It'll be a step backwards and we'll lose a lot of games, but they will be developing. And if we can live through this developmental period, this core has a better chance to go further than the core we are using now.
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