cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 16:00:32 GMT -5
Were you two guys the only kids in town with a Doc Rivers poster in your room and all the other kids made fun of you cause they had all-stars, so you had to justify in your own minds that he was really good? For example. I had Pete Rose, Jim Rice, Babe Ruth, Roger Clemens, and Muhammed Ali at one point. My brother had MJ. I think there was a Bird poster. You know. Good players. All - stars. Who were the kids with Doc posters? nobody. You know why? Cause he wasn't that good. That's what I'm talking about. You didn't say magic, but you basically said we were saying Doc was of the likes of those guys. And you keep saying Doc's stats are mediocre. I already proved to you that they aren't. Name me 35 pgs ever to play that have better accomplishments in their career than Doc? I also stated Doc played in an era where the pg position was different and stats don't mean that much. I'm pretty much done with this disagreement EJA. You obviously aren't getting it, and for whatever reason you want to make Doc out to be mediocre when he was a very good player and excelled at his position at the highest level. Like I said before if you said to Rajon Rondo that doc was mediocre, he would say the same thing. You are being ignorant and disrespectful to the guy. He was a very good pg. If you can't see that and you want to be an !!!GREENIAC!!! then that's up to you. If this is supposed to be a respectful board, I don't care if you respect me, but at least respect the game we are talking about.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Feb 9, 2007 16:16:27 GMT -5
If you saw the guy play, you know he was a good player. He was on the downslope of his career when I saw him play, and he was still good then. You can throw the stats out. The guy could play.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 16:20:21 GMT -5
I saw Doc play in the late 80's and early 90's and it was the same and he was one of the smartest, craftiest, hardworking pgs around. I'm not riding Doc's jock or anything but a lot of pg's today could learn a lot from watching him play.
I remember when Ainge hired Doc there was that story how Ainge used to hate Doc because of the way he played, but they ran into each other on a charter bus years later and started talking and AInge realized Doc played the game the same way he did and they hated each other for the same reasons.
As much as people knock Doc as a coach, which is justified to an extent, he is a guy that has a very high understanding of the game. He also has a very high work ethic and preaches that. Just because we suck, and a lot of us don't understand why, there are a lot of factors that go into that and just because Doc says something or does something we don't agree with doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is trying to do ultimately.
Ultimately this year has been a total crapfest, and i'm willing to give Doc the benefit of the doubt and so is Ainge. I'm not saying he is the end all be all, or that maybe ultimately he isn't the greatest coach in the world, but I still think he has done a lot of good.
This team went through a major overhaul. We are suddenly playing with 20 year olds and Doc has managed to get some semblance of an offense out of these guys and we went from the obrien era of shooting 40% to shooting 50%. He's in his 1st year coaching Rondo and Telfair. Jefferson ahs improved. West has done well. There have been some good things that Doc has done.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 16:39:20 GMT -5
The one thing I like about Doc as a coach and I remember well when he was coach of the year with Orlando was the way Darrell Armstrong played. He had a great year and I remember thinking armstrong was playing like Doc used to. We have to remember Doc is in his first year coaching Rondo and Telfair. If he can get those guys playing the way they should, this team is going to be a lot better.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 16:45:25 GMT -5
You see how I spun that EJA and got this back on the original topic? I have my reservations about Doc like everyone but I'd like to at least give him a chance to see what he can get out of Telfair and Rondo. And who are we going to get? There was talk that westphal would be a good choice for the same reasons, but I havent heard anything from him in i dont know how long. He seems to be dead and buried. And Heinsohn is a guy that understands what it takes to run, but who knows if he would ever do it or even be able to. Doc could get fired tomorrow for all I know but all signs seem to be pointing to that we are going to have Doc as our coach for a bit longer. We are amidst a 15 game losing streak and there isn't even talk or rumors of firing doc amongst the celtics organization which is a bit strange dont you think?
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Post by eja117 on Feb 9, 2007 17:13:22 GMT -5
Uh yeah I do see how you spun that. yes I do think it's quite strange.
It'll take me a while to find 35 pgs with better accomplishments than Doc so I'll need a while.
His playing stats are mediocre and you are the only person I have ever heard say "stats don't matter". I guess by that logic then I can find guys with way worse stats during his era that must have been awesome guys.
His achievement stats are also low. If one all-star game means "he was a very good player and excelled at his position at the highest level" then you keep telling yourself that. I consider that ok, or maybe even decent, but when you couple that with good to mediocre to bad playing stats (I know I know. Stats from the 80s don't mean anything) I'd have to say just not that good.
To clarify one other thing earlier I said top 150 pg to play in the NBA. What I should have said was top 150 to play the game. And by that I mean that basically the NBA has been around for 55 years. For a bunch of those years blacks weren't allowed to play, there were no foreigners except in the Olympics, and the ABA was around as well. The game wasn't the way it is now. Some day we might get players consistently from every continent, but for a long time players were excluded, so in some ways it's not fair to go back to 1972 and say "there aren't that many guys in 1972 that were better than Doc." Well how do we know if so many guys were being excluded? That's one of the reasons why it was such a shock when a bunch of inner city guys from harlem beat the Lakers.
My theory was more like every year there were three people born on the Earth that were better pgs than him, but I said NBA and that was probably wrong. Probably.
You keep saying if you walked up to Rondo he'd say he was great. Fine. But I doubt that. Rondo is younger than me by several years and would probably look at his stats (I know I know. Rondo would magically know that stats in the 80s didn't count. That's why nobody kept any stats during the 80s. Everyone knew how useless they were), then he'd probably see that he played in one all-star game and out of politeness would probably say "it looks like he was pretty good" then would walk away and think "man I hope I go to way more than one all-star game and average way better than that"
I also think if you walked up to Doc and said "hey were you a top 5 pg in your era" he'd say "Heck no. I had some good years but there were some damn good players out there". I think he'd do that for the exact reason I don't go around saying how good I was at high school football. No all-star appearances. Never led my team to a ring. Bad stats. I had good games. Not a good career. And if a guy was like "you weren't a good high school football player" I'd be like "You're right" because I wasn't good at the level I played. I was mediocre. Averagish.
When a player like Doc or Bledsoe or Ewing or Mark Blount or Ryan Gomes or anyone else like that makes the amount of money these guys make and then someone looks at the stats and lack of recognition and says 'I don't think they were that good" there is nothing even remotely disrespectful about that because they really weren't good at the level they played. The all-stars were.
The best example of that is when maybe my favorite writer Bill Simmons named a whole theory after one of those guys. The Ewing theory. Not disrespectful. Not even a little. Genious. Also when he kept criticising Isaiah Thomas for being the worst GM in the history of the league. Not disrespectful. Not even a little. And when Isaiah said he'd like to punch Simmons I just laughed at Isaiah. Because Bill was right. How did Bill know Isaiah was one of the worst GMs ever? I think he looked at the statistics.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 17:15:50 GMT -5
"I have literally "tuned" Doc off. Please find me the equivalent of a basketball Eric Mangini. We need a smart hard working coach that can take players and develop them. Mangini has helped the Jets overachieve this past year. I am not interested in Doc's analysis, this team needs change in a desperate way, please make a move!" - bceltfan
I came across that quote while searching Doc Rivers stats. I have to admit its amazing some of the things people say when they don't understand. That's exactly what Doc Rivers is imo.... If you look at the type of player Doc was, and that magic team when Doc won coach of the year they played to his image and they were exactly that. They were a smart, hardworking overachieving team. They had noone on that team. I'm kind of glad this topic was brought up, because it opened my eyes a bit to be honest. I read up on Doc and was reminded what kind of player and person he is, and I think if given the chance he can still be a good coach for this team.
Here is a quote from wikpedia
"In 1999, the Magic, under General Manager John Gabriel, who was later named Executive of the Year, hired rookie-coach Doc Rivers. Gabriel dismantled the previous team trading their only remaining superstar Anfernee Hardaway to the Phoenix Suns for Danny Manning (who never donned a Magic uniform), Pat Garrity and two future draft picks. The Magic were then a team virtually comprised of all no name players and little experience which included team captain Armstrong, Bo Outlaw and a young Ben Wallace, along with Coach Rivers led the Magic to a 41-41 record, barely missing out on the playoffs. At the end of the season Rivers was named Coach of the Year by the NBA. This year was characterized by the slogan "Heart and Hustle", as the team was known for its hard-working style."
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 17:25:45 GMT -5
When did I say stats don't matter? I stated several stats adn why Doc is where I said he is.
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Post by Roadrunner on Feb 9, 2007 23:02:01 GMT -5
Perhaps Doc's value was inflated, because no one knew who "big ben" was. If you would have told me, Detroit gets the better of the deal, Big Ben and co for Grant Hill, would never have thought so prior. Can we say Dukies over-rated?
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Post by eja117 on Feb 10, 2007 11:58:07 GMT -5
What do you mean what kind of player and person he is? I've already stated a Mt. Everest of undeniable proof that he wasn't that good a player, but logic and math isn't working. Now let's look at "what kind of person/coach" he is. If you're team was in the middle of a 15 game losing streak and people were talking about tanking would you be trying to get your team to win or would you jet down to DC to watch your kid play basketball? Or put it a different way. If your team were in the middle of a 15 game losing streak would you want your players to see you on ESPN enjoying yourself like you haven't a care in the world at a college ball game? Cause that's where Doc was the other day. Real smart.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Feb 10, 2007 12:02:52 GMT -5
Were you always this dumb eja? Or were you hit on the head by a hoe at some point?
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Feb 10, 2007 12:08:17 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I have no filter when it comes to stupid people. If I can't post here for that reason, then so be it. There had to be some sort of backwoods, farming accident involved with you. I tried to get this back on the original topic yet you continue with your idiotic responses. Are you kidding me?
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Post by eja117 on Feb 10, 2007 13:09:44 GMT -5
A hoe? You mean a garden utensil or did you mispell yo mama's knickname again? No. Nobody ever hit me over the head with her. It's not my fault if you can't filter yourself Chief. It's not my fault you keep praising and trying to figure out a guy who wasn't a good player or good coach. Ditka. Good player. good coach. Wouldn't be caught dead at a college game the day before he had one. Never had any record threatning streaks either.
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Post by eja117 on Feb 10, 2007 13:16:45 GMT -5
If you can't take what you dish out and stand the heat don't insult people for disagreeing with you or being critical of bad players and coaches Chief. Or anything else.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Feb 10, 2007 13:34:53 GMT -5
You're an idiot. I can't take what I dish out EJA? you are so dumb. I was just saying I have no filter so if I cant post here because of that then so be it. You're an idiot and I'm going to tell you you are an idiot. Because you are one. I'm not going to pretend to respect someone that I don't. I tried, but you just kept being an idiot. That's just the way I am and I accept that. I have no problem with someone who isn't the brightest but you are so stupid that you actually think you know what you are talking about and you actually talk (censored) on top of that, and you don't even know when to stop.
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