|
Post by DERRENMATTS on Feb 8, 2007 22:31:16 GMT -5
Whoa, I guess I was too late to stop the verbal assault on one another. Gentlemen, please refrain from calling each other out. Name calling isn't necessary to get your point across. I think you both made excellent cases about Doc's PG play during his career. But don't need to swipe each other's faces in the mud because it just ruins the good debate.
|
|
|
Post by eja117 on Feb 8, 2007 22:37:04 GMT -5
Actually the only name calling was when I was called an idiot and a fan, both of which are completely accurate. Ignorant is also accurate but is more a state of being than a name. I attempted to use witty sarcasm.
|
|
cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
Posts: 1
|
Post by cfoo on Feb 8, 2007 22:39:24 GMT -5
EJA and I are alright. We've gotten to know each other well enough where we can do this and not offend each other. I will attempt to refrain though. I think this argument has come to a close anyways.
|
|
|
Post by DERRENMATTS on Feb 8, 2007 22:40:58 GMT -5
That's good to hear.
|
|
cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
Posts: 1
|
Post by cfoo on Feb 8, 2007 22:44:01 GMT -5
Yeah it's all good. I have no problem with eja at all. He's a good guy. He just drives me nuts sometimes and I like to debate with him because I like to win
|
|
|
Post by freshnthehouse on Feb 9, 2007 3:17:57 GMT -5
And in movie news, I ended up going to Babel, not Pan's Labrynth. It was a little discombobulated, but still pretty darn good.
|
|
cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
Posts: 1
|
Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 5:03:21 GMT -5
This is a question, but I can understand saying someone is making a good point when they are, but EJA is not in this case. DO we have to say someone is making a good point, and be respectful even when someone isn't making a good point? I basically just stated teh truth here. SAying Doc Rivers is not a top 150 pg is pretty much what it is. If someone comes on here and argues Paul Pierce is really not black, do I have to respond that's a good point when he clearly is? And I actually was being respectful to EJA's argument until EJA decided to state that I took remedial math, and then I decided to take him to task. I listed facts and pretty much called him out. I thought that was fair. I still didn't call him an idiot until he used the you have a Doc Rivers poster and man love argument and then I decided to call him an idiot because his argument pretty much made him that. I think EJA even knows he was being an idiot, he even agreed with me so it's pretty much fine. Just the fact I responded to those statements shows I respected EJA's argument. This is just me, and I will try to restrain, but there's a fine line between being tactful and politically correct or just speaking the truth. Sometimes it's better to just speak the truth and call it like you see it, and I can't help that sometimes. If someone is cool, they aren't going to take that personally, and eja is for the most part. And I know that about him. Some people would take those statements personally, and eja isn't like that. EJA is secure enough where he knows those weren't personal attacks on him.
|
|
cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
Posts: 1
|
Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 5:41:12 GMT -5
That said I hear what you are saying Derren and I don't want this board to turn into a namecalling board and for it to get out of control. This board is what it is and is cool because people are respectful.
|
|
cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
Posts: 1
|
Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 5:59:40 GMT -5
Just to close this argument, I would even compromise with EJA and say that Doc Rivers is a top 50 pg of all time. And that I would not waiver from. I think realistically you can rate him any where in there. Me personally I would rate him around 30, based on his stats, the era he played in, the success of the team he played on, and the intangibles he possessed, but that is just my personal opinion.
|
|
cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
Posts: 1
|
Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 6:55:11 GMT -5
Here's a good profile of Doc
"Rivers played 13 seasons in the NBA for the Atlanta Hawks (1983-84 to 1990-91), Los Angeles Clippers (1991-92), New York Knicks (1992-93 to 1993-94) and San Antonio Spurs (1994 to 1995-96). He played for three of the game's top coaches in Pat Riley, Larry Brown and Mike Fratello. And holds career averages of 10.9 points, 5.7 assists and 3.0 rebounds per game. His teams advanced to the NBA Playoffs 10 times, where he averaged 11.4 points, 5.9 assists and 3.3 rebounds. Rivers saw action in 864 regular season games and 81 playoff games over the course of his career.
Rivers averaged a double-double in 1986-87 (12.8 ppg., 10.0 apg.) and was selected to play in the 1988 NBA All-Star Game. He averaged a career-best 15.2 points per game in 1990-91. He scored a career-high 37 points against Seattle on February 4, 1988. He also shares an NBA single-game playoff record for most assists in one half (15 vs. Boston, May 16, 1988).
Drafted after his junior season out of Marquette by the Atlanta Hawks in the second round (31st overall) of the 1983 NBA Draft, he played the first eight years of his career with Atlanta, setting the Hawks' single-season assists record with 823 in 1986-87, and ending his stint with the team as the franchises all-time assist leader with 3,866.
A product of Proviso East High School in Maywood, Illinois, Rivers earned the nickname "Doc" from former Marquette coach Rick Majerus, when he wore a "Dr. J" t-shirt to a summer basketball camp. Rivers played for the United States at the 1982 World Championship of Basketball, leading the U.S. to a silver medal and earning tournament MVP honors after averaging a team-best 18.6 ppg. During the summer of 2001, he served as an assistant coach for the USA Men's Basketball Team at the Goodwill Games in Brisbane, Australia, that captured the Gold Medal. "
In other words Doc was a silver medal player and a very good one. His teams competed at a very high level wherever he was and he is the alltime assist leader on the team that he played for. How much more do you want? I never said he was Magic Johnson or a gold medal top 10 type. I said he was around 30 or so and around Dennis Johnson's level, a little less, which he was. Dennis Johnson was a top 30 pg easily. If you want to put Doc around 35-40 because of all the good pgs in the league today, go right ahead, but to say Doc isn't in the top 150 and make him out to be this mediocre player that any pg in the nba today is better than, that isn't correct.
|
|
cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
Posts: 1
|
Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 7:54:34 GMT -5
Look at it this way. EJA is saying Doc is not in the top 150 pgs to ever play the game. There are 30 teams in the NBA. There used to be less. Doc started for his team for 10 years. The league has been in existance like 50 years or something. Most teams keep the same starting pg for a large span of time, although I know that isn't always the case, and I'm not going to do the math, because any pg worth noting in this argument did. Divide 50 by 10 and multiply it by 30(which is not accurate because there were less teams but whatever, the league has also been in existance more than 50 which averages it out hopefully), which is 5 decades of 30 pgs, and what do you get? 150. By EJA's argument(Doc is not in the top 150), Doc is not even in the spectrum of pgs even worth considering here. Doc started for his team for a 10 year span which proves that he is, and happened to be a pg of note in the process. That is how absurd EJA's argument is. Just the fact Doc Rivers started 10 years proves he is > than 150 other pgs to play this game. He could be the crappiest 10 year starter ever, which he wasn't, and he would still be in the top 150. By my analysis I'm saying every team had a 10 year starter every decade which is not true. In reality there have probably only been 50+ pgs or so in the history of the league that started for their teams for 10 years straight. Doc may be in the mid to lower tier of that group, but he was still a very good pg and is probably around the 30 range.
|
|
|
Post by eja117 on Feb 9, 2007 12:31:09 GMT -5
First I admit CF00 is definitely winning this argument about how good Doc was and I'll have just a little more to say about that soon, but as to one other thing I didn't want this to get into a "he started it" conversation but now that it's here let me just point this out.
First there was the comment "Saying Doc is not one of the top 150 pgs in NBA history is probably the most ridiculous thing you've ever said EJA" That was strike one. I've said way more ridiculous things
Then there was "Are you serious EJA? ....Maybe you are too young." That was more of a foul tip.
Then there was "Just face it EJA, you don't know what you are talking about and you are just making a fool out of yourself" That was strike three and that's when I threw a bean ball about math and teenage man love, having taken things 1% personal. But to say the calling each other out thing all started with my math comments is inaccurate.
And I stand by my arguement Doc just wasn't that great, unless all one time all-stars are great. I like Wally too, but one whole all-star game. Wally is not a top ten swing man of his era. And he is not a top 30 swing man of all time. Not even if he just happens to be in the top 9 in threes made or something. And I doubt he's a top 50 swing man either. Same exact thing. Same exact thing.
|
|
cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
Posts: 1
|
Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 12:54:15 GMT -5
The thing you are missing is Doc was a top 5-10 pg of his era. And a good era it was. The pg position was different but there was good pg play during the mid 80's. It was just different. After Magic, Isiah, Mo cheeks, DJ, who was better?
Had Doc played in the west he would have been on the allstar team, so that pretty much defuncts that argument. He was behind Isiah, Mo Cheeks and DJ every year in the East.
|
|
cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
Posts: 1
|
Post by cfoo on Feb 9, 2007 13:10:54 GMT -5
Noone here said Doc was a "Great" player by your terms EJA. You've somehow managed to change this argument into us saying Doc was this great player the likes of Magic. I think fresh said Doc was a damn good player to quote him and he is right. You said that Doc was not in the top 150 and he was mediocre and you are wrong.
|
|
|
Post by eja117 on Feb 9, 2007 15:44:10 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into semantics. I said he wasn't that good. fresh said he was damn good. I guess I have said in the past that Delonte is damn good, but obviously Delonte hasn't reached Doc status yet. He has to get to an all-star game and average better than 6 assists a game first.
You say he is damn good, but his stats are damn mediocre
I never said anything about Magic. You said that.
Now lets look at some other things you said. You said he was behind Mo Cheeks, and DJ every year in the East. Actually Doc played from 83-95. All of DJ's all star games were from 78-82, except his last one in 84 which was Doc's second year in the league. So really he was almost never behind DJ.
Mo Cheeks played in 4 all-star games and 3 of those games were when Doc was around from 85-87. But Doc had a 13 year career. What happened to all the other all-star games that neither DJ, nor Mo, nor Doc were in? So that pretty much defuncts that argument.
Before we answer that question let's look at the west where you say he would have been in the all-star game all the time.
Well in the 89 season Doc missed 34 games. In 84 he missed 13. In 85 he missed 29. In 91 he missed 23. So I'm not so sure he could have expected to go those years, since he was injury prone.
In his rookie year he averaged 9 and 4 so he couldn't have gone in 83.
Starting in 91 for the last 4 years of his career he averaged less than 10 and 5.5 per game so you can't expect him to go for the last third of his career either.
So already out of a 13 year career there are 5 years he couldn't go because not only was he mediocre, but he was arguably just plain bad. Then in 3 other years he missed more than a quarter of the season so he probably didn't deserve to be there then either. 13-8 is 5. He went in one of those 5 seasons. So what happened to the other four?
Well starting in 88 there was a new point guard in the west who was good. His name was John Stockton. So after 88 he would have been behind Magic and Stock. From 85-87 and in 90 a player named Alvin Robertson went to the all-star game in the west. Since he was a 4 time all-star I surmise Doc might have been behind Magic and him.
Doc had five good years out of 13. In those years he averaged no less than 11.5 points and no less than 5.9 assists. He was healthy in all but one and didn't go to the all-star game in all but one.
Also I want to point out one other thing about Doc. He was pathetic from 3 point range. I mean really bad. Really poor. Some high school kids are not just a little better, but a lot better.
A good pg should hit threes. Stretch a defense and the floor. For the first 5 years of his career he hit almost none. One year he hit 88. Big whoop. For comparison Jason Williams has hit between 98-145 every single year of his career. In 5 years he hit between 39 and 47. That's bad. In every other year he hit less than 30. In fact in one year he hit ZERO! Shaq has had years where he hit more than that.
To be fair the 3 point situation was evolving when he was around, but evolved to it pretty slow and what is the excuse for hitting 88 and then hardly ever again?
He just wasn't that good. If he was one of the top 5 pgs of his time and let's just say he was 5th, then I would say that in that case the discrepancy between #4 and #5 was bigger than at any time in history at any position. Man it just sounds ridiculous. Imagine this conversation. Hey let me tell you about this guy. He was so good. One of the top 5 of his era. So he went to a lot of all-star games? Well no. Won a ring? Uh no. Scored about 15 points a game? Never quite managed that but got close twice. All-NBA selections? No, none of those. Wow he sounds like a top 5 player.
|
|