cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Feb 8, 2007 21:31:36 GMT -5
Just because a player doesn't win a championship doesn't mean they weren't good or even great. Was John Stockton not a great pg? Doc was on the hawks and had to deal with the Celtics every year and his team was a top team in the east every year. We could get into the Dan Marino debate as well if you would like. He lead his team to the superbowl. He never had a defense or a running game and his teams were always competitive. And he holds every statistical record known to man. Would I say Dan Marino was the b est ever? Probably not because he didn't win the big one, but he was still a great great quarterback. If you ever watched Marino you'd know that. John Elway won the big one at the tail end of his career when he wasn't nearly as good as he was when he was younger, but he had a team around him. Say Elway retired 2 years earlier and he never won, does that mean he couldn't have? Does that mean Marino couldn't have? Does that mean Elway wasn't great if he retired earlier. There are so many factors that go into winning and a lot of great players dont win the big game.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Feb 8, 2007 21:32:33 GMT -5
And yes, Horace Grant would be a very good comparison to Doc Rivers. Both were defensive orientated, team-first guys.
Another good comparision would be none other than Danny Ainge. Both put up solid numbers in there prime, and then settled into back-up roles in their final few years. Terry Porter as well.
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Post by eja117 on Feb 8, 2007 21:35:31 GMT -5
i sure hope he hustled Fresh cause he sure didn't leave any numbers to look at and he didn't win any championships and let alone get selected to an all-nba first or second team, he didn't even go to almost any all-star games, which means he was never even recognized as one of the best pgs of his time, let alone all time. What's so hard about realizing that?
Also he shot .784 from the line which isn't .794. 80% is kinda a bare minimum. For a pg you'd expect even better.
Were you two guys the only kids in town with a Doc Rivers poster in your room and all the other kids made fun of you cause they had all-stars, so you had to justify in your own minds that he was really good? For example. I had Pete Rose, Jim Rice, Babe Ruth, Roger Clemens, and Muhammed Ali at one point. My brother had MJ. I think there was a Bird poster. You know. Good players. All - stars. Who were the kids with Doc posters? nobody. You know why? Cause he wasn't that good.
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Feb 8, 2007 21:37:48 GMT -5
you're an idiot. Who here is comparing Doc Rivers to MJ? It takes a man to admit when they are wrong. This is something you obviously know very little about.
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Post by eja117 on Feb 8, 2007 21:41:26 GMT -5
Oh my gosh. You guys are actually making defenses for Marino. It's happening. It's actually happening.
You're right. It totally takes a man to admit he's wrong. So i'm waiting for you guys to admit Doc wasn't that good. You will NEVER convince me he was a top 30 pg. For one thing there are probably 30 all-nba 1rst and 2nd team pgs. For another there are probably another 30 guys who didn't get 1rst team or second team but made two all-star games like Terrel Brandon. If you guys want we can meet in the middle and say top 70ish, but top 30? No way on Earth ever in the history of anybody's analysis ever no matter what.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Feb 8, 2007 21:48:22 GMT -5
Were you two guys the only kids in town with a Doc Rivers poster in your room and all the other kids made fun of you cause they had all-stars, so you had to justify in your own minds that he was really good? For example. I had Pete Rose, Jim Rice, Babe Ruth, Roger Clemens, and Muhammed Ali at one point. My brother had MJ. I think there was a Bird poster. You know. Good players. All - stars. Who were the kids with Doc posters? nobody. You know why? Cause he wasn't that good. Werent you the one just commenting on my lack of 'objective analysis?' Pretty classy post you got going here. Well gents, Im off to see Pan's Labrynth. I'm hoping that Eja's severe case of dementia is just some sort of 24 hour bug.
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Feb 8, 2007 21:48:47 GMT -5
You're an idiot. Previous to 1988 there was only a 1st team adn a second team all nba team. And MAgic Johnson was on it every year. Who here is saying Doc Rivers was all nba? Did you read the list of players you said are better than Doc? You said Doc Rivers was not in the top 150 pgs of all time. That is the argument. You've suddenly turned this into a Doc Rivers was comparable to the likes of MAgic Johnson argument.
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Post by eja117 on Feb 8, 2007 21:49:47 GMT -5
i agree with your statement I'm an idiot. It's the only correct thing you have said tonite.
But if Doc weren't a coach people would have totally forgotten he ever played by now. Terrell brandon played in twice as many all-star games. if it weren't for the fact he was a coach he'd be as insignificant to the game as ... someone really insignificant. john Starks and Mark Eaton would blow him away. So would Sean Elliot. They all went to one All-star game except Elliot went to two. So i guess that means they are all top 35 at their position right?
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Feb 8, 2007 21:53:12 GMT -5
All I'm saying is Doc Rivers was a great pg and was in the top percentage of pgs to play the game, which is all true. You play in the nba, you are one of the best at your position, you are a great player. I'm not talking Magic Johnson great. But Doc Rivers was still a great player in his own regard. You are making Doc Rivers out to be some average pg which is not true. Doc excelled at his position, and he excelled at a high level of competition. that's all I'm sayiing. If you ever saw him play, you'd know that. Doc was a very comparable player to Dennis Johnson and if they swapped places and Doc was on the Celtics and DJ was on the hawks, Doc would have had a lot more accolades.
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Post by eja117 on Feb 8, 2007 21:56:17 GMT -5
Classy? Oh ok, I'll do the whole fresh classy act thing right now.
Uh i'm right cause I say I am and cause I say you are ridiculous. Now if you would just get me the longest ladder ever built and extend it a little and get Shaq to stand on Andre the Giant's shoulders I'll get off my horse now and talk to all you mere mortals.
At least Chief uses his ability and puts out a little effort fresh. You got potential fresh. You're just not hustling.
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Post by eja117 on Feb 8, 2007 22:01:44 GMT -5
I saw Doc play. i was just barely getting into basketball around the time he retired. I'm sure he was good. I'm sure he was usually in the top 5th of the pgs in the league. So you can say that being in the top 5th means I can't say he wasn't that good. Fair enough. I stand by my statement he was probably top 150. you said twice he was top percentage. Top what percentage? Top half? Totally agreed. Top 3rd? Top 10th? I guess it depends how many guys played. Are we including all the guys that played in the ABA and Olympics? I'm just saying I'm not so impressed with his career and think saying he was one of the top 150 pgs that ever played the game was enormously generous to him. Ok. Not ENORMOUSLY generous. Maybe not even generous. But not so far off.
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Feb 8, 2007 22:04:26 GMT -5
I'm about to give up EJA, but if he was top 150 how do you explain why he is 9th all time in steals for pgs, and 30 in assists? Those are pretty good numbers for someone that is only top 150. Your problem is you are looking at all these inflated numbers of pgs today and thinking the game was always this way. Teams used to actually move the ball and share it you know, instead of having one guy handle the ball all the time. There used to be this thing called ball movement and half court offense and passing and team play. The pg used to be someone that used to initiate the offense and used to run the team on the floor. You watch pgs like Telfair and Rondo these days and they are talented and all, but they are clueless when it comes to actually running a team. The term "point" guard, doesn't mean what it used to. You do know why they call it that right? I bet half the pgs in the nba today don't even know why they call it that.
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Post by eja117 on Feb 8, 2007 22:15:28 GMT -5
I explain it this way. he had a long and steady career. Paul Simon probably had a top album once, and might even be top 20 all time in record sales and radio plays but he was still #100 on the list of top 100 artists, as voted by the artists themselves on VH1. I also explain it this way. By the time the generation of players we see today retire he won't be anywhere near 9th. I also explain it this way. How many guys on that list are still active players and will surpass him soon? That means they're better. I also explain it this way. Like you were saying about Cousy shooting a bad %, it doesn't mean he wasn't one of the best. And just cause Doc had a long mediocrely good career doesn't mean he was one of the best. Some of the other names on the list might seem a little out of place too. You think he belongs with the top 30 names cause he was top 30 in one specific stat and top 9 in another. I think he belongs more like with all the names that went to one all-star game, and below all the names of guys that went to two or more, which to be fair is probably way less that 150, since there has only been about 55 games. So that's 220 pg positions, and Doc has one, but the average player probably went to maybe 4, so divide 220 by 4 and you get 55, so Doc is in the top 40-60 minus the good young guys right now that haven't gotten to their first game yet, so in the next ten years he goes to the 50-70 range.
Ok fine. 40 is way closer to 35 then 150. You were right and I was wrong, and I still don't think he was that good, and I still think Dan Marino was a great talent, but is probably overrated and that John Elway was waaaaaayyyyy better.
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Feb 8, 2007 22:18:10 GMT -5
Saying Doc Rivers was mediocre is an ignorant statement and if you ever said that to doc, he probably would kick you in the face, and you would probably deserve it. This is the difference between being a fan and being someoen that played the game. IF you asked Rajon Rondo what he thought of Doc, he'd tell you he was a great pg. He'd probably tell you the same thing I'm telling you now. Saying something like John Elway was so much better than Marino is just being a fan. It's the same thing. Anyone who played the game knows how good Marino was.
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Post by eja117 on Feb 8, 2007 22:30:07 GMT -5
I said he was mediocrely good He could kick me in the face and then I'd punch him in the mouth and he'd still be a mediocre player and a horrid coach. Yep. I'm a fan alright. And I care about championships. So i think Elway was better than Marino. How about this. I'll go to the bar where people talk about guys that got to the Hall of Fame and won championships and you go to the one where people played the game and talk about all the losers who didn't win anything like Doc and Marino. Oh Peyton Manning just left. You better go explain to him that Chad Pennington and Drew Bledsoe are really almost as good as him and you know that because you played the game, and that the only difference is a ring. You might get kicked in the head and deserve it though.
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