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Post by DERRENMATTS on Feb 2, 2007 0:11:57 GMT -5
Other GM's have said that we overrate our young players. I agree and disagree.
Jefferson is not overrated. He rightfully deserves to be the name that pops up in any trade proposal. And he's going to get better as he cleans up his footwork in the post and puts on more upper body strength. He's taken a major step forward this season and he has solidified his place on the team for the next decade.
Gerald Green is a high potential player, but its possible that we may overrate him--especially if we think he's going to compare to some of the best wings in the league (like McGrady and Kobe). He won't get quite that high, but I do think All-Star appearances can be expected out of him in the future (and not just the Dunk contest).
As far as the other players go, I think we overrate them as Celtics fans. Delonte, Perk, and Gomes are solid role players who are borderline starters on half the teams in the league. I don't think GM's are high on these guys. Telfair and Rondo would be playing at a higher level right now if Doc will allow them to play their games and I think both are starting caliber PG's on most teams. But they are not going to be future Nash's, Billups' and Kidd's.
Tony Allen, before he injured his knee, was raising his value after every game. He was truly incredible. With his defense, slashing ability and slick athleticism, I'm sure teams were calling for him. Ironically, I don't think many fans were high on Tony, save for the final couple of weeks before his injury.
So basically, I think GM's are right in that we overrate some of our young players, but not when it comes to Jefferson and Gerald.
We may have to bundle up a bunch of our young guys together (minues Jefferson and Green) with an expiring contract (Theo's) to get back one pretty good player who wants a new start with another team.
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Post by BCHISTORIAN on Feb 2, 2007 1:15:40 GMT -5
i'm all for sending some youngsters out as long as the pack doesn't involve jefferson, green and rondo. but i guess you all have heard it from me several times
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Post by The Eye of the Q is upon you! on Feb 3, 2007 0:04:29 GMT -5
i'm all for sending some youngsters out as long as the pack doesn't involve jefferson, green and rondo. but i guess you all have heard it from me several times Add Tony Allen to that list.
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Post by BCHISTORIAN on Feb 3, 2007 2:03:32 GMT -5
luckily for us nobody wants tony allen right now anyways. because of the injury situation you know
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Post by eja117 on Feb 3, 2007 9:13:54 GMT -5
Are other GMs right about our team? What all those genious GMs out there that have champiosnhip teams cause they are so smart while DA is so dumb? I didn't realize our team is the only team in the league that has ever lost, leading all the other GMs to look down on us from Mt. Olympus and talk about how great they are. Geez if we only had the GM from Philly, or Milwaukee, or New Jersey, or Portland, or Indiana, man we'd be set right now. I guess other GMs would respect us a lot more if we traded AL J for another wing, or a vet whose best days are behind him as long as he sells a lot of jerseys and tickets. I guess they think we should trade TA for a song and give up on GG. I mean the guy is 20 already. These GMs sound like the baby in the fantasy league who can't get a deal done cause he keeps trying to trade nothing for something and never learns. babys. If they're so smart go win a championship already.
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Post by Roadrunner on Feb 3, 2007 9:57:48 GMT -5
Derren, great new thread (karma+). I tend to agree, and disagree:
Agree: some of our players (example - Allen, West, Gomes) are playing better than I expected, and to now expect them to be all-stars, would be over-rating them.
Disagree: some of our players (example - Jefferson) are playing better than I expected, and I still think they have room to improve.
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Post by esco33 on Feb 4, 2007 11:44:37 GMT -5
What's ironic is that we may overate some of our young players but I bet you if they were on other teams they would be putting up some pretty good numbers if they were used correctly. I think you blame Doc here. We have too many young guys for all of them to shine and coach isn't always using them right, and by the time he figures it out it's always to late into the season or several "years" later. (See Gomes, Jefferson, Allen)
If Delonte was on another team and was allowed to start and play 35-40 minutes a night, after half a season of finding his niche I believe he could put up numbers like these: 17 points a game 6 assists 5 rebounds
...which is pretty decent.
Gerald Green after one more year and being used correctly on the right team could put up:
23 points a game 6 rebounds (with at least 3-4 spectacular dunks/alley-oops per game)
Again...decent numbers.
Big Al basically like he has been doing can put up 20-24 points a game with 10-12 boards easily if given the ball in the post on a consistent basis like I have been saying all year. In the past month or so, he has been and and has been putting up these types of numbers practically.
Tony Allen I was down on but this year he had really bounced back. On the right team I believe he could average:
20 points/gm 5 rebounds 4 assists
(He was basically doing that with us for about 3 weeks before he went down)
Gomes I feel is really more of a bench role-player but in the right system and if given enough minutes could put up:
15 points a game 7-8 rebounds
Rondo has really come on as of late. Hopefully, he can put up these types of numbers with the Celtics for many years to come:
19 points/gm 8 assists 5 rebounds
Perk is the only one. He is lost out there right now, and has been a disappointment to me this year. (Bring me Greg Oden)
So the real question is, "Are we really overrating our players talents/abilities or are they just not being used correctly by the coaching staff according to their individual skills?"
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Post by eja117 on Feb 4, 2007 12:55:08 GMT -5
I don't know. I think it's maybe better to compare them to comparable players from the same age groups.
I'd compare Perk to maybe Travis Outlaw and maybe Mike Sweetney. I guess Perk is #2 on that list.
I'd compare Banks to the guys picked right after him. Ridnour, Reece gaines, and Troy Bell. He's #2 there and useless. Also Barbosa was way better picked like 12 slots later. Big failure there but it could have been way worse, and he was part of a respectable trade considering.
Al J gets compared with Biedrins picked a few slots ahead, Kris Humphries one pick ahead (that was a good pick cause Humphries had proven himself in a year at the college level. My obsession with proof would have backfired.), Robert Smith, maybe Josh Smith, and Pavel Podkolzine. I'd take Al J over all those guys but anyone who'd take Biedrins or Josh Smith I wouldn't call them crazy.
Telfair gets compared directly with Jameer Nelson, but I guess you could pull Delonte in there sort of. Bassy loses big.
Delonte and Tony Allen get compared to Kevin Martin and Chris Duhon, and I guess lose pretty big.
GG gets compared with Martell Webster picked way before him, Julius Hodge, Francisco Garcia, and Luther Head. You could be tempted by head. I'd still take GG. It looks good when you compare him to Webster. So try to look at where he is vs JR Smith or Dorell Wright.
Gomes gets compared to Jason Maxiel, Ronny Turiaf, and Wayne Simien and wins big.
Rondo gets compared directly to Marcus Williams, but also Jordan Farmar, Sergio Rodrigues, Kyle Lowry, and Mardy Collins and is winning big.
Powe gets compared to Paul Milsap and Craig Smith and is losing.
Allan Ray compares to almost nobody in the second round except Dee Brown. He also beats out Maurice Ager, Shannon Brown, and maybe Quincy Douby from the 1st. I suppose Daniel Gibson in the second round maybe beats him out maybe.
So what you have here is DA trying to say the Rondo, and AL J are maybe in the top two or three in their draft classes and I think he's right.
He's right that Gomes is the best tweener/6th man you'll ever see. Not only did he beat out tons of big men in his draft class from the first round, but even other draft years.
He's insane if he puts much value on Bassy.
For now he's stretching things if he thinks of Delonte, TA, or Ray as much more than ok back ups and he probably did try to make TA sound like the next Kobe at some point.
Where he's probably pissing people off is he's insisting GG is the next TMac. Other GMs are probably trying to tell him he'll be lucky if he's the next JR Smith. They're hoping he sorta treats him like a Martell Webster and that they end up with the next Kobe. DA won't let that happen and that's why they're ticked at him. I wouldn't either. I'd insist on at least a high draft pick, or someone with a good history who is still young like a Ridnour or Andre Iguodala. The thing is he probably wants to get a big man, and those are really hard to come by. Nobody wants to let the next JON or even Emeka or KG go and get Martel Webster in return so they are at an impasse. DA has a problem cause he doesn't want the next Martell either. One other thing he can't do is let BOTH the next Kobe AND the next JON go for a KG whose best days are behind him. The future and trying to get Oden is way safer, so other GMs are ticked they can't do anything. They want to trade their Pau Gasol's for something kinda good wth pword and he won't let them. He'll wait for Oden and they think that's unfair. He's just being a good GM. He's waiting for Oden and is taking a chance he just happens to end up with the next JON and Steve Nash too. If you want to send us Pau Gasol that's fine. We'll send you an unproven GG, Powe, and Gomes. So other GMs are trying to call him a dumb sissy. It won't work. STICK IT TO THE MAN DANNY!
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Post by eja117 on Feb 14, 2007 22:36:01 GMT -5
You know what. I'll want to trade some of these guys as soon as I think they're bad. This whole trade away GG or Al J stuff for vets that are kind of good. No way. No way. I'll do it as soon as I think they are bad. At some point I think Delonte, Perk, and Gomes make up the best 2nd unit in the league. I think Al J is better than Pau now. That's right. That's what I said. Go ahead call me ridiculous. I think he's better now. Also I think GG and Rondo could be prodigies. But we are talking about a senior, junior, junior, and sophomore in college. I don't know how people expected them to win without PP, Wally, TA, Perk, and even Kandi, and Scala. When you lose your top 3 guys, 3rd best big man, and the league's best 15th men that's a problem. If the Suns or Spurs or Bucks, or Lakers, or Nets, or anyone lost their top 3 players and were left with a bunch of college kids they might lose too.
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Post by Roadrunner on Feb 14, 2007 22:51:39 GMT -5
The only trade I didn't like was the Telfair & junk for the pick & junk.
Our second unit is great, hidden gems, however when any starter is hurt, the team sinks.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Feb 15, 2007 4:37:59 GMT -5
The second Antoine trade was the worst move of the Ainge administration IMO.
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Post by The Eye of the Q is upon you! on Feb 15, 2007 23:42:22 GMT -5
I got an idea - lets show Danny and Doc the door and get a 2nd management opinion about our roster.
Then again we will not agree with their moves.
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Post by Roadrunner on Feb 16, 2007 22:48:39 GMT -5
Refresh my memory, what was the second 'toine trade?
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Post by freshnthehouse on Feb 17, 2007 5:51:36 GMT -5
Refresh my memory, what was the second 'toine trade? When we traded for him back. We basically gave up a 1st rounder for 2 months of Antoine.
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