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Post by The Eye of the Q is upon you! on Jan 30, 2007 23:07:51 GMT -5
So we are playing out the string with this shameful 90 game exhibition season. I don't get it, I was supposed to see intensity - instead we got another whipping. This game was not close at all and Indiana is at best a perennial one and out EC team - worthy of a category 4 out of Category 6 team.
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Jan 31, 2007 5:43:01 GMT -5
I know this is an unfair comparison but teh cowboys went through a miserable 1-15 season in 1989. This was Jimmy Johnson's first year as coach. They were a young team. Troy Aikman was a rookie out of college, Irvin was a 2nd year player. Irvin got hurt. Aikman got a concussion. it was just lowsy. 3 years later they were superbowl champions. I know that was a different time and sport, but Ainge had stated this would take 3 years to be contenders and 3 years later we are having one of those seasons. I understand this is basically Jefferson's and Green's rookie year pretty much, but it's still hard to swallow, and the main part that bothers me is I see Doc being ok with this. Ainge is laughing and having a good time. When that cowboy team was losing Jimmy Johnson was insane and threatened to go after buddy ryan and kick him in the butt after the bounty bowl and needed the police to escort him out after the second game. That is why I knew that team was headed in the right direction. The Eagles disrespected them and the cowboys threw punches. They had the drive. You could just tell Johnson was determined and was not enjoying the losing and neither were the players or the fans. The one win they had that year was against the superbowl champions and they played their !!!GREENIAC!!! off. I don't see that here and it bothers me.
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Post by The Eye of the Q is upon you! on Jan 31, 2007 23:30:07 GMT -5
Nope, I am beginning to think we are locked into a long period of bottom feeder status. Pierce and Wally can't get it done by themselves. Perkins and Jefferson are too inconsistent. Green is sometimes out of it. THe Coaching is abyssmal. Every trade backfires. I am close to giving up the ghost and quit watching the Celtics all together. It just isn't good for my health to see all this losing. They cannot win a frickin game on their home court, NOT ONE. We may lose every game from here to April 19 and finish 12 and 70 for crying out loud.
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Post by The Eye of the Q is upon you! on Jan 31, 2007 23:31:37 GMT -5
I know this is an unfair comparison but teh cowboys went through a miserable 1-15 season in 1989. This was Jimmy Johnson's first year as coach. They were a young team. Troy Aikman was a rookie out of college, Irvin was a 2nd year player. Irvin got hurt. Aikman got a concussion. it was just lowsy. 3 years later they were superbowl champions. I know that was a different time and sport, but Ainge had stated this would take 3 years to be contenders and 3 years later we are having one of those seasons. I understand this is basically Jefferson's and Green's rookie year pretty much, but it's still hard to swallow, and the main part that bothers me is I see Doc being ok with this. Ainge is laughing and having a good time. When that cowboy team was losing Jimmy Johnson was insane and threatened to go after buddy ryan and kick him in the butt after the bounty bowl and needed the police to escort him out after the second game. That is why I knew that team was headed in the right direction. The Eagles disrespected them and the cowboys threw punches. They had the drive. You could just tell Johnson was determined and was not enjoying the losing and neither were the players or the fans. The one win they had that year was against the superbowl champions and they played their !!!GREENIAC!!! off. I don't see that here and it bothers me. I wish we would get some thugs on this team that will not be pushed around.
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Feb 1, 2007 2:37:23 GMT -5
I know how this sounds. But I was hoping someone would throw a punch last night. Against the lakers it was pretty sad seeing a bunch of laker fans in the garden cheering Kobe on. Things just aren't the same. The garden isn't the same. What has happened to this team where a bunch of laker fans can come into the garden? And it's just another loss..... Things have become way too politically correct, the nba has set this no tolerance policy, and it's pretty lame if you ask me. This is also why I miss Tony Allen. He is one player that is like that and gets it. Antoine Walker was another guy. There is no way Walker would be putting up with this. He would find some way whether it was positive or negative to create some sort of buzz in the garden. Where is the heart adn the emotion? At least the C's played a more focused tonight, and looked a little more determined. They cut down their turnovers which was good. They just got beat by a more talented player in Kobe. I wish we would see more of this, instead of just being ok with the mistakes this team is making and accepting it.
The movie Hoosiers is another good example of what I'm talking about. That team sucks, they have no talent, they are getting their !!!GREENIAC!!! handed to them, and they start a fight. I know its just a movie, but that's sports imo. George Brett is one of my favorite athletes ever because he was like that and is another example. He was nuts. Noone could beat the Yankees but George Brett didn't care. He wasn't teh most talented guy, but he just was nuts like that and he used to kill the yankees. It just seems like sports have changed and everyone is trying to say and do the right things and be classy, and everything is way too politically correct. Class is overrated. Larry Bird was probably the biggest trash talking cheap !!!GREENIAC!!! ever to play the game, and I loved him because of it. What surprises me here is Danny Ainge was the same way and I would think he gets that.
Where's the leadership on this team? It's not coming from Doc. After every game I hear him say how proud he is which is all well and good, but someone really needs to stand up eventually and say enough already, we are better than this, and become a leader.
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Feb 1, 2007 3:05:22 GMT -5
This is a season that we are supposed to be dedicating to Red and noone seems to get it, and its a little disconcerting. Of all people Red was all about that. TAlent has a lot to with it, but it isn't everything, Red would be the first guy to tell you it's about dedication and will to win, and breaking the will of your opponent. I just don't see that here. I see guys accepting that they are young and just going through the motions. I see fans accepting that this team isn't very good right now, but hopefully will be in a few years. This team never will be good with the attitude they have right now. It's a losing mentality that is ultimately going to breed more losing, unless things change. And I'm not saying all is lost here. I see good things. I think the team is trying to get better which is good, I think they are on the same page in a lot of regards, but I'd like to see a lot more of that.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Feb 1, 2007 6:01:36 GMT -5
Ive always said that this culture of losing idea was a bunch of mularkey. Im sure there were Spurs fans predicting it woas the downfall of the franchise to bench helathy players like they did in 97. Looks like that turned out all right for them. THe Cleveland Cavaliers were a hideous franchise before Lebron got there. YOu dont here nay of that culture of losing nonsense talk about the Cavs anymore. Here's what Jeff from Celticsblog has to say on the subject:
Dispelling the “culture of losing” fallacy
One of the principle arguments that has made its way through the message boards is the notion that the volume of losses that this team has endured will develop a culture of losing, or an acceptance of failure as it where.
Those who warn of the dangers that building through the draft may bring continually mention teams such as the Hawks and Clippers. However, there are some distinct differences between those teams and the current Celtics.
The Celtics have uniform communication from the ownership level all the way through the coaching staff. The team has an organizational direction that is supported from the highest levels of the team and is openly discussed and understood by all principle decision makers. Teams such as the Hawks, or until recently the Clippers, have had no such direction or communication. It can be legitimately argued as to whether or not the Celtics have an effective direction, but they’ve chosen to build around Pierce by developing youth and playing the market if and when they see value.
Teams with losing cultures never commit to any direction. They continually draft players, but they are also continually letting other young drafted players go to other teams as their new youth arrive. The Clippers were a turnstile franchise for decades before Donald Sterling began worrying about his legacy in Los Angeles.
With no direction from the top, players stop believing in ability of their franchise to find success. Players don’t get the solid leadership and consistent message they need to continue to fight through the down times. As those down times continue these players start playing for their next contracts or the next plane out of town. That’s what breeds a culture of losing, something that is not currently a part of the fabric of this team.
Rajon Rondo put it into perspective in a way that transcends his age and experience as a rookie trying to establish himself in the league.
“You kind of do think about [progress] individually, but its still a team sport. We’re trying to get wins on the floor. It hurts to have a couple of the losses that we’ve been having, those 3 and 4 point losses. We’ve got to stay positive and stay together. We don’t want to handle adversity, we want to overcome. Just stay together; if the fans stay with us, then we’ll be all right.”
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Post by freshnthehouse on Feb 1, 2007 6:05:18 GMT -5
After getting chance to see Durant play an entire game(and what a game he played!) I am truly getting psyched for our future. Somehow we've got to get PP on board for sitting out the rest of the season. We need to be the worst team in basketball this season. A 46% chance at the top two picks? How often are there two prospects of this caliber in the same draft? And solid talent after the top 2 as well? If we play our cards right, we could have a pretty good chance at changing this franchise around this June.
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Feb 1, 2007 7:57:49 GMT -5
I'm all for building through the draft Fresh. That's good to hear that Rajon said that. I was not in favor of trading for Iverson. I have no problem with the youth movement at all. I just hear things that make me believe that I'm not sure this team knows what their direction is. Maybe I have been listening to Doc too much. He is basically the spokesman for this team after every game and I don't agree with a lot of what he has to say, and that is leadership from the top. IMO this team could be playing better than it is, and there is a reason for that. Ultimately changes need to be made somewhere, because I don't see the improvement I'd like to see from this team. It seems like we take one step forward and several steps back. Has Perkins really gotten any better? Maybe he's hurt, but he has no lift, he is getting beaten over the top on rebounds. Green should get a lot better, and it's understandable he is being asked to do a lot right now for his age. Telfair is struggling. Rondo has his strengths and his glaring offensive deficiencies. Delonte and Gomes have always been good since they came into the league. The only marked improvement I have seen so far is Jefferson.
Anyways I think you are taking what I'm saying way too literally. All I'm saying is changes ultimately need to be made. With the current situation this team is going nowhere. Maybe Ainge has a plan to do that, but the more things stay like this the worse its going to get. And i understand what you are saying and I agree with that, that you need to have a plan and stick with it, you can't become a revolving door and keep changing your plan, but at the same time insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Ultimately someone needs to step up. Whether that someone is on our roster currently, whether we need to draft someone or trade for someone, or get a new coach, I don't know what that is. But this team as is, is not going to win anything. You can still have a plan, and make changes to supplant that plan I guess is the point. If there are certain thigns that aren't fitting into that plan those are where the changes need to be made. This team isn't at ground zero, certain parts are improving, but there is a lot of changes and things that need to be done to get this team where it needs to be.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Feb 1, 2007 17:08:00 GMT -5
I'm all for building through the draft Fresh. That's good to hear that Rajon said that. I was not in favor of trading for Iverson. I have no problem with the youth movement at all. I just hear things that make me believe that I'm not sure this team knows what their direction is. Maybe I have been listening to Doc too much. He is basically the spokesman for this team after every game and I don't agree with a lot of what he has to say, and that is leadership from the top. IMO this team could be playing better than it is, and there is a reason for that. Ultimately changes need to be made somewhere, because I don't see the improvement I'd like to see from this team. It seems like we take one step forward and several steps back. Has Perkins really gotten any better? Maybe he's hurt, but he has no lift, he is getting beaten over the top on rebounds. Green should get a lot better, and it's understandable he is being asked to do a lot right now for his age. Telfair is struggling. Rondo has his strengths and his glaring offensive deficiencies. Delonte and Gomes have always been good since they came into the league. The only marked improvement I have seen so far is Jefferson. Anyways I think you are taking what I'm saying way too literally. All I'm saying is changes ultimately need to be made. With the current situation this team is going nowhere. Maybe Ainge has a plan to do that, but the more things stay like this the worse its going to get. And i understand what you are saying and I agree with that, that you need to have a plan and stick with it, you can't become a revolving door and keep changing your plan, but at the same time insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Ultimately someone needs to step up. Whether that someone is on our roster currently, whether we need to draft someone or trade for someone, or get a new coach, I don't know what that is. But this team as is, is not going to win anything. You can still have a plan, and make changes to supplant that plan I guess is the point. If there are certain thigns that aren't fitting into that plan those are where the changes need to be made. This team isn't at ground zero, certain parts are improving, but there is a lot of changes and things that need to be done to get this team where it needs to be. I can def. see you not be confident in Ainga and Co.'s ability to build a winner. Even though I think Ainge had done an all right job, I can see how tha argument can be made from the other direction. This summer Ainge and Co. will have to make some huge discisions. Lets hope that who we draft isnt one of them(c'mon #1 or #2 pick!). But the odds are we wont get those picks. We may need DAs rookie evaluation skills more than ever. After we select our player, I hope this team has the nerve to take a good, hard look at Pierce. They've got to decide if the rest of our team will be able to mature quickly enough to make a run with Pierce. If not, weve got to look at trading him. If we end up drafting a big, Id like to see us package theo, some youngns, and a pick for a decent vet PG. If we end up with a swingman, package Green with other youngns and picks to pry gasol out of Memphis.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Feb 1, 2007 18:24:08 GMT -5
See that's not it either. I actually am confident in Ainge. Most of the moves he has made so far have been the right ones. He has made some mistakes but noone is perfect. All I'm saying I don't think Ainge expected this team to be this bad. I also think actions speak louder than words, and AInge has done the right things for the most part. I also don't like what I hear sometimes and I hope he continues to make the right moves, because the next few moves he makes are really going to be crucial to this teams success. I just tend to think that a lot of people, including Ainge thought this team as it is is going to win, and I don't think that is the case. I tend to think we still need to add a few big pieces here to be competitive. I think Ainge has realized that and is tanking the season for that reason. At least I hope that is the reason. I just hope he knows what he is doing is all. I've seen this before. And I've seen teams do it the right way, and the wrong way. Do I have absolute undyiing faith in Ainge? No. Proof is in the pudding pretty much. And when I see it I'll believe it.
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Feb 1, 2007 18:43:22 GMT -5
I don't question Ainge so much, as I question some of the pieces he currently has in place. I don't think this team is as talented as people think, and I also am not sure if Doc is the man to take this team to the next level. I see Jefferson as the one true bright spot. I see Green as a potential player, but I'm not sure how good he will be ultimately. I think Rondo can play if he can ever figure out how to hit a shot or a layup. Telfair is a major ?? mark and could be good or he could be a wasted gamble. Perk is the same thing as Telfair. Although I think Perk at the least will be a decent bench guy. West and Gomes are solid. We have Pierce. We can hope Tony Allen comes back as his old self. Powe and Scal are decent bench guys. We really need another stud in here, especially at the center position and if I were Ainge I would be trying really hard to land Oden, and if we don't we need to get someone who can be comparable. I also think this team needs direction and more cohesiveness and maybe we are just taking things slow right now and that will change, but ultimately this team needs to start taking larger steps forward, and I'm not sure if Doc is the guy to get that out of this team.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Feb 2, 2007 3:53:29 GMT -5
I don't think this team is as talented as people think. I whole-heartedly agree. I assume by most people you mean celtics fans. Its astounding how many Celtics fans overrate our players. I was envolved on a thread on celticsblog where some were saying they would trade AlJeff for Bosh(!) and that Gomes could possibly reach Gasol's level(!!!)
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cfoo
Welcome To Celtics Green!
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Post by cfoo on Feb 2, 2007 4:27:57 GMT -5
See that's what I'm saying I guess. I just get teh feeling sometimes that people think just because are young we have this gold mine of talent here and as we mature we are suddenly going to be nba champions. IIt's like Rondo is going to turn into the next nash, and all is going to be good. That isn't happening. It's not like we are just struggling here and young, we are the worst team in the league right now and that tells me that we are not only young, but we also aren't very talented. We also have a lack of leadership and a lack of direction. That is a lot of things. And Gomes is not going to ever be the next Gasol. Gomes is what he is pretty mcuh. Same with Delonte. Rondo will improve, so will Green but I don't see either of those guys being the next great thing. Even Jefferson is a very solid player and is going to get better, but he isn't the greatest player around and barring a miracle he never will be. I hate to say never, but I just don't see it with any of the guys currently on our roster. Do we have the potential to be a decent team? Sure.. But if we ever plan on being champions Ainge has a lot of work to do.
This is why it bothers me when I hear that AInge offered several players for AI to pair with Pierce. Now is not the time to do that. Getting Gasol and expecting us to be contenders is not happening either. Sure I think if AInge can add Gasol for the right price and upgrade the talent of this team we will be better because of it, but neither of those guys is going to make us a contender. They are just another piece in several pieces that need to be added imo.
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