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Post by eja117 on Jan 27, 2007 21:08:21 GMT -5
If you expect our guys to compete with Lebron you will be sorely disappointed. Our team is not so dramatically different, and in some ways is much better than the Spurs the year before they got Duncan, or the Cavs before they got Lebron, or the Magic before they got Shaq or the TWolves before they got KG.
In some ways CFOO is right. In a lot of ways some of our noninjured guys aren't that good. Perk, Powe, GG, and Bassy are just plain bad right now. Gomes and West will probably never be all-stars. Rondo is not bad but not good. TA was good, but is hurt now. Ray, Gomes, and AL J are the only ones showing much fairly often. Welcome to life with a bunch of sub-22 year olds in the NBA being coached by a coach that can't coach with no healthy veteran leadership whatsoever. You could tie the left hand of any two of the Suns behind their back and they'd still beat us this year, and probably even next. For the exact same reason that the most talented 5th grade teams don't beat pretty good high school teams. Well not the exact same reason, cause there's a height difference but pretty much every other reason. Now give the 5 graders a bad coach and the high school teams good coaches. Now take the best player off the 5th grade team. Same thing. It's why I am not always a fan of drafting high schoolers and pword guys
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Jan 27, 2007 21:24:02 GMT -5
I guess the point is we are young. We don't have a ton of talent. We have some good young players. If we were getting the most out of that talent I would feel differently, but we aren't. I think people expect us to be one of those teams that doesn't necessarily have that lineup that makes you ooh and ahhh like the lebrons and the suns of the world do, but we play a style that beats these teams. That is what is concerning to me, that if we are going to be one of those teams that plays the game the right way and is talented enough, we probably should act like one and we aren't. This team doesn't seem to have any direction right now. Guys don't seem to know what they are doing out there or supposed to do or what they are supposed to be. That is what is concerning to me. We are a poorly coached and AInge seems to be ok with this. Maybe he is shooting for the lottery this year and just letting guys get their feet wet, so we can land a few extra players and expand the talent right now, which makes sense, but that is speculation, and I hope that is the case, but right now I don't know that. How do we know that he doesn't draft a couple more players and we still have no direction. Without that we are never going to be good.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jan 27, 2007 23:36:06 GMT -5
We have the 2nd to worst record in the league. That really isn't "competing".
We may be losing games, but during the game, we are competing. During these recent games, no team can say that we were a cakewalk to win. Our young guys have definitely been competing. You absolutely cannot take that away from our kids.
And you say well Pierce and Wally got hurt. Thats no excuse.
Again, I bring up the example of any other team losing their 2 best players and see how they do.
These are ainge's guys out there. These are the players he drafted and are supposed to be the guys that are supposed to lead us to a championship.
Yes, but not right off the bat. Not at an average age of 22 years. Give them a few more years and you'll see a completely different story.
If we are so talented why are we the worst team in the league 3 years later? Lebron is pretty young. Does he use that as an excuse?
Its not fair to compare any of our young guys to Lebron. But if you take away Snow, Ilgauskas, Gooden and Hughes and replace them with guys who average 22 years of age, you would see a different Cleveland team.
Pierce, has Wally, Jefferson and all this young talent you speak of. The Cavs won last night without Lebron.
And the reason is because Cleveland is a veteran team with proven veterans who have been playing with one another for a few years now. We don't have that luxury. This season, with a team full of healthy players, we very well could have been a new team. Last season, we missed Jefferson and Perkins due to extended injuries. This season, we're missing Pierce and Wally.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Jan 28, 2007 4:57:33 GMT -5
And you say well Pierce and Wally got hurt. Thats no excuse. Losing your two best players is a great excuse for losing. Pierce and Wally are two best, most experienced players. Take away most any teams best two players and they will stink. Heck Take Lebron off the Cavs an thats a 60 loss team. Take Gilbert Arenas and Jamison off the Wizards, thats a 60 loss team. Take Kobe and Odem off the Lakers and thats a miserable team.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Jan 28, 2007 5:03:27 GMT -5
Not to pick at Ainge or anything, but his plan of rebuilding and staying competitive at the same time was a blatant lie. I dont really think its a blatent lie. I never agreed with it(why float in a sea of mediocrity when you can sink to the bottom and hopefully find a bitchin' nucular sub?), but its obvious that is what there plan was. IF they werent trying to be competitive, they would trade pPierce and completely rebuild. My guess is if we wouldve had a healthy Pierce this year, we wouldve won some where in the 32-38 win range, and got saddled with either a late lotto pick or a 1st round play-off drubbing. We will look back at this season some day and say Pierce getting hurt was the best that couldve happened this season.
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Post by eja117 on Jan 28, 2007 9:40:48 GMT -5
Derren's right. We compete for the first 2/3rds of the game against anyone, then fade, which would happen to any team with so many injuries and a bad coach. Plus it's not our top two players that are hurt, since AL J is our best player now. It's our 2nd (PP), 3rd (TA) and 4th (Wally) that are hurt along with our only vet big man.
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Post by Roadrunner on Jan 28, 2007 9:48:42 GMT -5
3/4 of the game, the team competes on hustle. The last 1/4 of the game, the team fades, because it lacks experience (which it is gaining now) to close the game.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Jan 28, 2007 17:43:24 GMT -5
Plus it's not our top two players that are hurt, since AL J is our best player now. A healthy Pierce is still a better player than ALJeff is right now.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Jan 29, 2007 15:39:03 GMT -5
I tend to think we aren't very good. You can say we compete but we really aren't imo. Basketball games are won and lost in the final 5 minutes of games. We have had games where we are getting blown out the first 3 quarters adn then come back and make it a game. We have had games that we stay close, and then lose it at the end. We have had games where we just get beat from start to finish. It's all sorts of ways we are ultimately losing. You can say it's experience, which I buy to an extent, but the amount of losing we are doing makes me question whether thats the only reason.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Jan 29, 2007 15:45:11 GMT -5
And you say well Pierce and Wally got hurt. Thats no excuse. Losing your two best players is a great excuse for losing. Pierce and Wally are two best, most experienced players. Take away most any teams best two players and they will stink. Heck Take Lebron off the Cavs an thats a 60 loss team. Take Gilbert Arenas and Jamison off the Wizards, thats a 60 loss team. Take Kobe and Odem off the Lakers and thats a miserable team. You didn't read what I said fresh. It isn't an excuse. Because these are Ainge's guys we have out there now. And it's the amount of losing we are doing. We have lost 10 in a row with Ainge's guys and are the worst team in the league. If we were a good team we would have at least stayed competitive with Pierce going down. Look at Cleveland. Look at Denver when Melo went down. Thos teams might not be as good without there best players but they at least stayed competitive. The Celtics aren't staying competitive imo. They might be trying. They might be hustling, they might be competing in that regard, but that's not what i'm talking about.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Jan 29, 2007 16:01:09 GMT -5
People can say that's lack of faith in Ainge. But that's not what I'm saying either. I have faith in Ainge. I think he's done a lot of good things. I just would be a fool to not be questioning whether or not his plan is really working the way he even planned. I'd really like to know what his plan is to correct this. We aren't just going to suddenly get better. This team is in serious need of direction imo and hopefully Ainge has a plan to put that in place but watching these games I don't see the direction I'd like to see. Does that mean a coaching change should be made next year? Does that mean we need more talent? MAybe....
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Post by eja117 on Jan 29, 2007 16:04:24 GMT -5
If every player on Denver were under 23 when Melo went down I don't think they would have stayed competitive no matter whose guys they were.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Jan 29, 2007 16:59:25 GMT -5
Losing your two best players is a great excuse for losing. Pierce and Wally are two best, most experienced players. Take away most any teams best two players and they will stink. Heck Take Lebron off the Cavs an thats a 60 loss team. Take Gilbert Arenas and Jamison off the Wizards, thats a 60 loss team. Take Kobe and Odem off the Lakers and thats a miserable team. You didn't read what I said fresh. It isn't an excuse. Because these are Ainge's guys we have out there now. And it's the amount of losing we are doing. We have lost 10 in a row with Ainge's guys and are the worst team in the league. If we were a good team we would have at least stayed competitive with Pierce going down. Look at Cleveland. Look at Denver when Melo went down. Thos teams might not be as good without there best players but they at least stayed competitive. The Celtics aren't staying competitive imo. They might be trying. They might be hustling, they might be competing in that regard, but that's not what i'm talking about. I completely understand what you said, I just dont agree with it. I say you take Lebron away for a long stretch of time and that team falls apart. We've lost arguably are two best, inarguably are two most experienced players for most the season. Most teams would fail(or be mediocre at best) if you did that to them.
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Post by eja117 on Jan 29, 2007 19:54:16 GMT -5
I agee about Lebron. I also think without Amare and Nash the Suns would fall apart. Without Novitzki and Howard the Mavs fall apart. Without D Wade and Shaq the Heat fell apart. Without PP, TA, Wally, a healthy Perk, and with a bunch of 21 year olds we fell apart.
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cfoo
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Post by cfoo on Jan 30, 2007 22:40:17 GMT -5
I don't agree with that. I dont think those teams are as good, but Amare was gone all last year and the Suns did very well. Shaq has missed the majority of the season and Riley has been missing in action and the heat are hanging on. The point is there are pieces around those guys. We are now seeing what Ainge has done to this team and we are the worst team in the league talentwise and experience wise and coaching wise outside of Pierce. Wally is back and we still suck. I think people are missing the point, that what has Aigne really done to improve this team? We've gotten worse. If his plan was to get worse before we would get better, i understand that, but that's not what he said. This is 3 years later mind you and we are horrible. I understand having faith in Ainge and giving him a free pass, because he has aquired youth, but it bothers me to see this team lose and I see Ainge and so many people being ok with this, when it's not ok. Basketball is played to win or lose and right now the Celtics are a bunch of losers. And on top of that they are accepting defeat. That bugs the hell out of me. Ainge should be under some serious heat right now imo. This is the type of stuff that breads losing imo.
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