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Post by freshnthehouse on Aug 21, 2006 15:59:49 GMT -5
Yes. yes it is Al's fault that Perk always makes those plays and Al never does. If you never make those kinds of plays and you never are counted on to do so you might just be weak. Always makes those plays? I like Perk as much(hell, MORE) than the next guy, but he isnt Dave Cowens. And in regards to Al, he does make those plays. He takes charges. He dives for lose balls. Does he do it at the same rate as Perk? Who knows, but he does it enough not to consider him a weak player. Larry Bird was a better PF than Al could ever dream of being. Bird spent his first 5-6 seasons playing PF. Does that mean Bird moved to SF because he wasnt tough enough to handle the PF spot? No, just like it isnt a knock for Al not to be a center. If anything, it should show how good of a player Perk is for handling it at his size. Al's offensive game seems to go best when he has a size advantage on offense, yet he still runs the court well enough not to get beat by quicker PFs. And that 'there's no positions stuff is niave. Bird couldve played center, but Kareem wouldve avered 50+ ppg against him. No amount of hustle would change that. Zo didnt guard Shaq over PJ because he was tougher. Not all things basketball are predicated on being 'tough.' Zo guarded Shaw because he was one of the best defensive big men of all time. Thats not a slight on Brown, who was no slouch on defense. Mourning was just a bigger better defender. And again, teams do try to hide there stars on defense(if they can). It only makes sense. If PJ Brown could ve guarded Shaq as well as Mourning, dont you think Riley wouldve had him do it? Why risk fould on the more importnat offensive piece(morning) when you could let Brown do the job? I guess you can, but it seems like drawing at straws to me. They both got injured in the second half of the season. They both had lingering problems this season. They both required surgery. Seems pretty close to me. I dont thinkk Coleman was any smarter than a guy like Bo Outlaw on the court. Probalby stupider if anything. He was just blessed with more physical ability and basketball skill than a player like Outlaw could ever dream. But he didnt have a better career than Coleman. Look at the numbers. Coleman in his prime was infinately more coveted than a player like Outlaw. No amount of hustle will change that. That doesnt make any sense. Just because a guy claims he is more talented doesnt mean anything. In a player like Coleman's case, his number show how talented he was. Again, just because a player was drafted higher doesnt mean he way more talented than another player. It means that sometimes GMs make huge mistakes. Leaf's physical attributes made GMs take a risk on a guy that clearly didnt have the mental or emotional prowess to be a big time QB.
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Post by eja117 on Aug 21, 2006 16:45:25 GMT -5
I hardly know where to start. Every single counter point was either ridiculous or proved my point, or was just wrong, or didn't make sense so I'll just try to take a step back and make simple arguments.
first of all I don't think you can say Al plays really hard or plays as hard as Perk. I think Perk is way way closer to Dave Cowens than Al. maybe Al can be the next Othella harrington or something and while Othella wasn't a weak player that just doesn't excite me. maybe weak wasn't the best word to use but weakest link maybe is better. The guy's toughness has never impressed me much and when a guy plays two years without doing that that is a bad sign and he is the only young guy on the team I can say that about right now that I have seen play some.
Comparing Bird and Al is getting wierd. One of the reasons Bird switches over to sf is cause McHale was around and also it points to amazing talent, but yes if you want to think of it that way you could say he switched over to sf cause he wasn't "tough" enough for pf. I think being an NBA big man is a "tougher" position to play than swing man or pg just like I think the linebackers and line men are generally tougher than the defensive backs, punters, and quarterbacks in the NFL.
I don't think anyone in the game could have scored 50ppg on Bird. Not without him scoring 50 back. Or forcing them into turnovers or fouls. He would adjust. He wasn't as good on d as offense but he was I think All NBA defensive third team twice. if Kareem would score 50 on him then he would score 300 on AL, which is somewhat of a toughness issue.
You could say Perk and Al have had some similar injury problems but i would say you can make a better argument for Al being injury prone than Perk, and part of the reason may be conditioning which kind of points to toughness.
Comparing Coleman and Outlaw to Al and Perk seems a little odd to me but here I go. If you could add a young clone of Coleman to your team or a young clone of Bo Outlaw who would you choose? I would choose Outlaw. Outlaw has gone down in NBA history as a decent player and Coleman basically hasn't. He has gone down with Isaiah Rider (just arrested again) as a player who crippled himself and his teams who put hope in him. I guess since I would pick Outlaw instead of Coleman then i consider Outlaw the more "talented" player or the "better" player. I kinda reject the theory that the more "talented" player is or can be the worse player. It's like when someone tells you how good they were and then they lose. i guess they weren't so good after all. Well i guess Coleman wasn't so good or talented or skilled after all. Coleman is like the kicker who can kick really far or really accurately from up close but never both. Not so talented. if Leaf didn't have the emotional or mental prowess then he wasn't very talented. And you can say it was clear but actually it wasn't. At least not at the time.
I looked at Coleman's numbers. I don't see a talented player in those numbers. I see an ok player. I see a very good backup or maybe a 4th best player on a good team. I see a player who was 6'10 evidently shooting a lot of 3pters and hitting at a rate of .295. Not so talented. I see a player with an assits to TO rate of 2.5/2.61. is that talented? Do other bigs have numbers like that? i know Bird was talented and was considered a good passer. i see a fg% of .447. Not so talented. 33.2 mpg. Not so talented. Good backup numbers. 1.35 blocks/gm. Ok but not super great. 16.5 ppg Ok that's talented 9.3 rpg Ok that's talented. .768 ft%. Ok, not super talented
Now looking at Bo Outlaw we see some things pointing towards him having more hustle and being more talented. He was 6'8. Smart enough not to shoot 3pters. 5 rpg in a third less mpg, at 2 inches shorter. That kind of points to hustle only .05 blocks per game in a third less playing time and two inches shorter. Points to hustle A far superior shooter .566 fg%. a positive assist to to ratio. Worse on fouls and scoring. Never crippled teams only helped them and got paid a lot less for it.
So I think, especially for the money, I would go with Bo Outlaw cause I consider him a better player and therefore more talented. Coleman also had really really horrible seasons. How about 95-96 where he played 11 games. 96-97 he played 57 97-98 he played 59 98-99 37 00-01 34 03-04 34 i'll forgive him his last season when he played 5 He never played an 82 game season. the most he played was 77 and he only played 4 70+ game seasons Outlaw played 9 80+ game seasons. Apparently Coleman was so talented he never played. If you are getting benched or suspended all the time you aren't talented. That's kinda why I don't think he applies to Al or Perk, cause neither of them get suspended although maybe you could make a case for injuries.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Aug 22, 2006 0:28:15 GMT -5
These posts are getting cray long(and my internet connection is sketchy at best), so Im gonna try to make these short. first of all I don't think you can say Al plays really hard or plays as hard as Perk. I think Perk is way way closer to Dave Cowens than Al. maybe Al can be the next Othella harrington or something and while Othella wasn't a weak player that just doesn't excite me. maybe weak wasn't the best word to use but weakest link maybe is better. The guy's toughness has never impressed me much and when a guy plays two years without doing that that is a bad sign and he is the only young guy on the team I can say that about right now that I have seen play some. You seem to think that Im saying that Al is somehow 'tougher' than Perk. Ive never said that. I said that I dont think Perk plays weak game. You disagree. Moving on. This blows my mind. So PF and C are tougher postions. Why? Because they are taller? In reality they are physically less demading. PP and swingmen have to be in good shape. There have been big men in this league with weight problems(OMiller, John Williams, Stanley Roberts, Thomas Hamilton). You wont see that with little guys. If you are gonna say that Larry Bird playing C against Kareem isnt a bad match-up for the C's, I dont know what else to say. How is landing akwardly after getting a rebound a conditioning problem? Not once have I compared Outlaw and Coleman to Perk and Al. You said there are no talented players. And I used these two to show that tahats not true.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Aug 22, 2006 3:41:19 GMT -5
You could say Perk and Al have had some similar injury problems but i would say you can make a better argument for Al being injury prone than Perk, and part of the reason may be conditioning which kind of points to toughness.
Eja, listen to yourself. Its blatant bias. Jefferson sprains his ankle going up for a rebound. Perkins dislocates his shoulder going after a rebound. How is it that Jefferson's injury is because of his lack of toughness while Perkins' injury proves that he's a tough player?
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Post by eja117 on Aug 22, 2006 8:51:50 GMT -5
It proves it because of the way Perk plays and because of the way Perk conditions himself whereas Al doesn't and the the way he gets injured less (are you guys saying they get injured the same amount?) and because of the fact that Al has long recovery times. Somebody out there should listen to themselves. At one point people were talking about Delonte being injury prone. Why aren't they talking about Al being injury prone? If anything the double standard lies in me not having accused Delonte of being injury prone, but then again Delonte is a tougher player and his minutes and games played increased this year and he didn't get injured in summer leagues I don't think. have any of you guys ever had an injury?
Yes I don't think AL plays a particularly tough game. I don't see why that's so shocking.
You may not see swing guys that are overweight outside Scoonie Penn and Kalid El Amin, but you don't see many ripping with muscles either and there is far more contact under the paint. Ever play the sport?
Not gonna say Larry against Kareem is a good matchup for us. Just not necessarily as bad a match up as Kareem vs AL. Al better bring some toughness for that.
I guess I can't say there are no talented players. Obviously MJ and Lebron are talented. But all the more reason to play tough and condition yourself. Talent doesn't matter so much on the hardwood. And there are many forms of talent.
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Post by eddietours on Aug 22, 2006 9:14:42 GMT -5
all good and heated post but let me get this right this is going tobe AL third season right so let just see and wait,rome was not built in one day.
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Post by eja117 on Aug 22, 2006 9:30:38 GMT -5
No but with the use of cement and tons of laborers they were able to build things like Nero's house and the colloseum in a very short period of time and then those things lasted for millenia. And i wouldn't have wanted to wait for years to build Rome. I like it the way the Amish do it and the whole community comes out and builds a barn in ONE DAY!!!!!!! The county the Amish are in produces like 6 eggs and 2 gallons of milk A SECOND. They may be some of the hardest workers on Earth.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Aug 23, 2006 2:10:08 GMT -5
At one point people were talking about Delonte being injury prone. The people that werre saying that were being short-sighted, just like anyone who dismisses ALJeff as being injury prone is being short-sighted. Delonte is a perfect example of why you shouldnt judge a player off of one bad year.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Aug 23, 2006 2:16:05 GMT -5
You may not see swing guys that are overweight outside Scoonie Penn and Kalid El Amin, but you don't see many ripping with muscles either and there is far more contact under the paint. Ever play the sport?. Did I play the sport? Hell, I could describe the bench of every junior high gymnasium in North-central North Dakota to you. And I mostly played center. There may be more contact as a PF or C, but guards have to be in much better shape defensively. Quickness and indurance are pluses for big men. They are neccessities for guards. There is a reason a lot of big guys can play 15-18 years in the league, yet you rarely see guards play that long. Its more physically demanding.
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Post by eja117 on Aug 23, 2006 8:05:43 GMT -5
Short sighted? You would have been pretty foolish to have not been concerned or unhappy about Delonte's early injury proneness. What does a guy have to do around here to be injury prone? Be out 4 years in a row like Ilgauskas and then you're injury prone the rest of your life? Have your arm fall off? Oh but then it's probably ok if you just work hard and bike a whole 8 miles with a trainer I guess.
That's like saying most wide recievers are in better shape than linebackers. being in shape doesn't equivalate to being tough in any world. By that theory those Kenyan marathon guys are the toughest people on Earth and the summo wrestlers are big babies. I assume Kenyans can run a lot longer and summo wrestlers die young from clogged areteries but I have no idea. There are plenty of guards that play a long time. Part of the reason some bigs play 15 years is that it's almost impossible to find a good one who is tough enough. Look at Eric Montross. The guy could hardly move and played like 9 years.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Aug 23, 2006 15:14:23 GMT -5
What does a guy have to do around here to be injury prone? Be out 4 years in a row like Ilgauskas and then you're injury prone the rest of your life? Yes, pretty much. Im def. not going to judge player after one year, thats for sure. You know, Michael Jordan missed more games in his first two years than AL Jefferson did. He turned out to be a pretty durable player.
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Post by eja117 on Aug 23, 2006 20:56:42 GMT -5
There is a difference between a guy who plays 3 injury free years in the ACC and then a rookie year in the NBA, then a summer, then goes a few games and gets hurt, and a guy who comes back in his second season out of shape, then has a bad summer league, then gets hurt during the season, then gets hurt again during the summer and has no history of being healthy. At the very least he is now the most injury prone player on the team besides maybe Leon Powe and Wally now that Raef is gone.
If somebody asked me "A Celtic will get hurt and miss a significant number of games this season. Who will it be?" I'd rank it 1 Wally 2 Al 3 Tony A (I think it takes a year before you can trust major knee issues) 4 Perk 5 PP and his elbow 6 Powe 7 Delonte 8 Scala 9 everyone else depending on playing time. I kinda think Sebastian is due. And there's nothing crazy about me putting him at number 2. That's kinda like being injury prone or at least having injury concerns (basically the same thing)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2006 13:52:16 GMT -5
As far as I'm concern, none of our young kids have proven to be consistent yet. Yes, they either have 1/2 to 1 good year so far in their career but thats it. I'll judge when I see these guys come in perform year-in and year-out. Until then, every young kid on this team needs to prove something to show me that they are here to stay not performance teasers.
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