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Post by eja117 on Jul 20, 2006 13:02:42 GMT -5
i think it's totally obvious. Players with attitudes like Perk win championships. Players with p word like Al get beat by Perks (and usually even Gomeses)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2006 15:35:01 GMT -5
Perk has proven to be a quality starting center in this league. And I hope Ainge locks him up sooner than later. Or you're going to see a Dalembert or Nene type contract being ask from Perkin's Agent.
If Perk gets 10 pts 10 rebs 2 blks per game next year, It's going to cost this team atleast 8-10 mil to keep him.
Right now, Perk has a bigger impact on this team than Jefferson.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Jul 20, 2006 15:39:20 GMT -5
You know, Eja, AlJeff's second year #s are better than Perk's second year #s. Why arent you getting after Perk?
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Post by FLCeltsFan on Jul 20, 2006 19:15:18 GMT -5
I love Perk... I love his toughness and his work ethic and think he has been progressing very well considering the coaches haven't given him playing time because of the likes of Blount and Raef... but I think Al is going to develop also. i think that the two players can complement each other. After the Blount trade and they were getting playing time together and before Al hurt his ankle again, they were playing great together. So I vote for one of each.
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Post by eja117 on Jul 20, 2006 19:43:13 GMT -5
Fresh the reason I get on Al and not Perk is that Perk has continued to earn his playing time instead of having it given to him in favor of a player who has way better numbers like Al J and Gomes. Also Perk takes steps foreward and works hard on his body. Al J takes steps backwards and doesn't work on his body nearly as much. Also Perk plays like he wants to win enough to die for it and Al looks like Duncan did his first few years in the league, which is that he plays cause he's good at it. Yes Perk's #s aren't as good but they have improved for 3 years in a row and will again this year. Al's went down as a direct result of a blown off offseason. Now let's see what he can do. He may definitely surpass Perk, and according to God given talent maybe he should. But until then Perk has surpassed him. And he really did surpass him cause he was further down the depth chart, was getting less PT, beat out not one but two vets for his job, and now gets more PT. Al hasn't beaten out anyone.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jul 20, 2006 20:13:56 GMT -5
Eja, what do you mean when you say that Jefferson takes steps backwards? From his rookie year to his 2nd year, he didn't take a step backwards in his production (his stats improved). His conditioning did not get any worse (it didn't take a major step forward, but he did not regress either).
FL, I think you are absolutely right. Perk and Jefferson can compliment each other. Doc does not seem to like 2 big men cloggring up the middle, probably because it takes away from others (like Pierce) being able to penetrate and attack the basket. That's why he used Raef a lot, because Raef would help spread the floor.
But the way I see it, having our 2 big men in the middle will increase our offensive rebounding. And it also allows guys who penetrate into the paint to pass to an open big man for a monster dunk.
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Post by FLCeltsFan on Jul 20, 2006 20:24:51 GMT -5
It frustrated me so much when Doc would have the bigs out on the perimeter. He even had Perk and Al playing further out much of the time and you are right I think it was to leave the lane open for Pierce to penetrate. I sure hope he allows them to play under the basket and that will make us that more efficient. I believe that is why our rebounding was so bad because the bigs weren't playing under the backet but out on the perimeter.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jul 20, 2006 20:32:11 GMT -5
It killed me that both Raef and Blount would park away from the paint, in essence, crowding the perimeter space for Pierce and Ricky. Doc needs to utlize the post players because it will allow guys like Delonte (and hopefully Allan Ray) to have more of an impact with their outside shooting ability.
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Post by freshnthehouse on Jul 20, 2006 21:24:11 GMT -5
Eja, what do you mean when you say that Jefferson takes steps backwards? From his rookie year to his 2nd year, he didn't take a step backwards in his production (his stats improved). His conditioning did not get any worse (it didn't take a major step forward, but he did not regress either). Egg-sactly. Al Jeff made strides(especially on the defensive end) last year. Was it the jump that most people expected? No. Were most people's expectation for Al last year realistic? No. Also, I dont think that AlJeff was handed his minutes. He only started to start after the Blount trade.
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Post by eja117 on Jul 21, 2006 0:03:30 GMT -5
He did regress when you consider his health and his play in Summer league. Sorry but when you getting beat by street free agents in summer league I kinda think you regressed even the first round pick increased his ppg from 6 to 8. he also clearly didn't beat out Gomes.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jul 21, 2006 0:44:13 GMT -5
Yes, but you must consider that Gomes has 4 years of college experience. Since Jefferson came out of high school, he's had a rookie season where he averaged less than 15 minutes per game, and an injury riddled sophomore year in which he was playing catchup for most of the year.
Clearly, the summer league games weren't used to showcase Jefferson's improvements. He only had a handful of touches, and whenever he did have the ball, he was surrounded by players, so all he could do was kick it out.
Before going down for the second time with an ankle injury, Al started coming on pretty well. In the 7 games before going down in which he played more than 20 minutes per game, he averaged 13 pts and 8.4 rpg. He had 4 double digit rebounding games and 7 double digit scoring games. He was finally starting to get some momentum, and then he rolls his ankle again.
Had Al stayed healthy in training camp, he could have started off the season putting up 13 and 8. And if he hadn't have injured his ankle, by seasons end, he may have been putting up 17 and 9. We'll never know.
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Post by eja117 on Jul 21, 2006 9:17:39 GMT -5
Right exactly. Gomes went to college so he has more work ethic, is healthier, and is better, so Al J can't beat him out. If you made every excuse for Gomes and used obscure statistics for Gomes (when he wasn't getting any PT at all his stats weren;t good, so uh maybe if he had played the whole year he could have been a 20 10 guy by the end) and excused any negatives about him then suddenly Gomes looks pretty good too. But Al didn't stay healthy in training camp. And he didn't heal. And he did get hurt. And he got hurt again. So far in his career he is a runt. He is the exact oppositte of Perk. Despite all his "talent" if they were both lions Perk would be ruling the pride and have all the mating rights with the lionesses and Al would have to flee in the forest to hang out with a warthog and meekrat and sing Elton John songs.
Tough guys on the team
Perk Wally (Al would never have played with a knee like that. he probably wouldn't have even got out of bed) Delonte Gomes
Pretty boys PP GG TA Telfair Allan Ray possibly Powe
Wimps Al
unknown Scala D Jones Rondo Powe
We need less wimps and more Perks. So far Al's career hasn't been that different than Olowakandi's only more injuries and he's shorter.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2006 12:35:33 GMT -5
Getting his teeth knock out of him, stab at a night club (plays B-ball in 2 weeks) and not to mention he played with a bad elbow all year.
Putting Paul Pierce under pretty boy is an insult. If anything, all the toughness starts with him.
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Post by DERRENMATTS on Jul 21, 2006 14:05:18 GMT -5
I would be shocked if Gomes was not ahead of Jefferson right now after having 4 very good years at Providence and learning a lot of the essentials of basketball that players should have coming into the NBA. He should be ahead in the development department. But the untapped skills that are in Jefferson, waiting to be developed, can put him way beyond Gomes' skill level once those skills are unleased and harnessed. To downplay his game, his attitude, his abilities, etc., just because he had a disappointing year (due to injuries, mind you) in his sophomore year, at the ripe age of 20, is really uncalled for.
After Jeffersn's rookie year, everyone was excited about this guy (as I'm sure you were also). We had big dreams of him becoming a big hit in his second season. But he injures his ankle. Let me state that again, he injures his ankle, and misses a significant amount of time in training camp and preseason. Because of his ankle injury (twice), it hurts his sophomore year, and his 2nd year was taken off track. And because of that, Jefferson's bandwagon takes a big hit and many are calling him a bust. I just don't see how that can be fair for any person who gets injured.
For all we know, Jefferson could have had a big year last year if he hadn't had the ankle injury--and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.
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Post by eja117 on Jul 21, 2006 15:03:05 GMT -5
fair enough fair enough.
First of all PP is tough. I kinda feel wings in this league aren't as tough as they used to be. I kinda think after Jordan there was an obsession with speed and dunking and every single time I play I hear guys calling ridiculous ticky tack fouls and even the rules are being changed to accomodate this (ask D Wade), but as wings go he is tough and so is Allen Iverson, but i expect that toughness. I never found the Cs overly tough, and did find PP and Toine and Mercer (whom PP defered to in many ways) more interested in dancing and shimmying and shrugging their shoulder and less so in defense but that was just me. Plus I'm being hypocritical. Like if PP doesn't kill himself on defense he's a pretty boy, but if Kobe mugs someone like Bibby or Manu he's a thug. He is a thug by the way and maybe the only player I'd want less than AI despite his killer d.
Secondly injuries are not acceptable or excuseable, especially if they would have been more easily prevented bu conditioning. You can not possibly praise a guy's endurance and work ethic (think Karl Malone) without critisizing guys who are hurt a lot and AL J has been hurt a lot considering how long he has been here.
Third I would not be shocked at all if AL J were better than Gomes. If Gomes were on the magic he would not be beating out Dwight Howard, because Howard is good. Dwight Howard and Al J must be held to the exact same standards cause they are in the exact same league competing against each other and are the same age. If Coke hired a 12 year old CEO and Pepsi hired a 12 year old CEO and Pepsi's CEO was as good as a man or better and Coke's was only as good as a 14 year old Coke really needs to fire it's CEO and either get a good 12 year old or a man. Or some other age but good no matter how much p word the 12 year old has. Come back when you are good enough. Coke can't sit around and wait forever for the 12 year old to get good just cause one time Shweppes had a 12 year CEO, they fired him and the next year he was good for Stewarts.
I want to point out 2 other things. Yes Al J had better stats this year, but that doesn't mean he progressed. We raised our expectations reasonably and he didn't meet them. hence a 15 year old can be better at math than he was as a 14 year old and still get worse grades, cause he is regressing. Possible factors include effort etc. If GG only gets an extra rebound and 2 extra ppg this year he will have regressed.
Second, I give high school kids two free years. Two. they really should be good immediately cause they are in the same league as everyone, but I give them two. According to you guys a high school player who is drafted is nearly owed a year or two before he can be cut but not a college player. I don't think that at all for a lot of reasons, but I think you can at least compare them to their peers. You can cut a college player after a year if he doesn't perform as well as other college guys and nobody says anything even though tons of college guys didn't blossom for years, but not so with high school players. Even second round high school players usually get 2 years, unless something happens. By your theory Ousminne Cisse and Korleon Young shouldn't have been cut for another year cause Rashard lewis took a year or two to blossom and JON took 4 and he was a first rounder. But when a college freshman is cut after a year or even a month (Marcus Taylor) it doesn't matter. Even a high school age euro can be cut or traded and nobody says anything. Tchizovilil of Denver (it is absolutely impossible to spell that name. There should be a 7 letter limit unless it's easY) was like 3ppg his first year and nobody would have said anything if he was traded after a year. Basically cause some of the best players today WERE high schoolers they are being discriminated in favor of. It's not consistent or logical.
If Emeka had been traded after this year for being hurt people would understand. If D Howard had gotten hurt and was traded people would have been howling. heck Al J will be miraculous if he is as good as Emeka and people are already howling about trading him.
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